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Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

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Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#101

Post by mdorazio »

dorito_chimp wrote: post #67
mdorazio wrote: post #61

As someone who invested in and got burned by A123 Systems a few years ago, I'll believe these guys are a legitimate company to watch when their battery packs are actually in a large number of cars for a few years without defects. Making LiOn batteries reliable enough for vehicles is harder than most people think, especially when you need extensive QA at scale.

I'm sure you know how much harder it is than a bunch of electrical and mechanical engineers who've been working on it for years. No doubt you're qualified to make such a statement because your expertise and experience in electrical systems and manufacturing trumps theirs. Probably you didn't read the whole article but their batteries have already been in at least one production vehicle for a couple years now (the por…

I made no claim of the type you're implying, although I do work in the automotive industry. My comment was strictly related to history - A123 Systems was also a company of electrical and mechanical engineers attempting pretty much the same thing, and they failed nonetheless (you can look up the history if you're curious). My point was that technical expertise is insufficient on its own to guarantee success in areas like this where a minor manufacturing defect can brick cars or light them on fire months after they leave the factory. That's what extensive QA at scale means - every single battery that gets sold has to be extensively checked for performance and safety or else you get Galaxy Note 7 or A123... again.

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#102

Post by fma »

desireco42 wrote: post #62

Look, it takes some guts of this journalists to come up with titles like this and writing articles. I wish all this electric cars best of success, but 'taking on Tesla', this is not some small irrelevant company, let's be real here. Tesla is leaps and bounds ahead of everyone, not only with having electric car, but also this car is like from future.

TSLA produces 2,000 per week.

GM produces close to 10 million cars per year. Calculating that out, it's 192307 per week...almost 100x.

TSLA isn't irrelevant, but definitely small.

BTW GM is selling a mass produced 100% electric vehicle. You can have one in your driveway before the end of the year. $30k after tax incentive, 255 miles per charge (more than Tesla Model 3)

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/21/chevy-bolt-goes-255-miles...

https://electrek.co/2016/06/13/tesla-production-rate-2000-ca...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#103

Post by greglindahl »

fabrice_d wrote: post #96
martin_bech wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the performance and features, it is in no way expensive. The P100DL beats a Lamborghini Huracan off the line up to 100mph+ at a fraction of the cost. Disclosure I own a Models S 85D.

Sure, but you're not gonna do a race lap at full speed with a Tesla. These 0 to 100 numbers don't tell the full performance story at all.

I don't know what country you're from, but in the US there are a lot of people who obsess about straight-line drag racing. For example, in the Fast and Furious movies, while they drive cars in all kinds of ways, the obsession is about a "10 second car", which is a straight-line 1/4 mile measurement.

Also in the US, there's an even larger group of car buyers who will never drag race their cars, but like knowing that the car they just bought is excellent in some way.

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#104

Post by agumonkey »

barpet wrote: post #2

I am a european and getting pissed off by these cocky austrians and germans. They are so full of themselves and keep trash talking about Tesla for so long. Yet they cannot deliver. Tesla does. Period. Also it's not only about technical superiority but experience as well. Tesla excels here.

I've heard German brands mock the self driving marketing, seen as irresponsible to them, not the vehicle engineering side. But I may be wrong.

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#105

Post by mr337 »

Brakenshire wrote: post #39
denzil_correa wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do these electric cars compare against Tesla?

The i3 appears to be a really well designed car. It costs about $7000 more than the model 3, but it already exists. And they've just increased the battery capacity 50%, so the nominal range is 200 miles, or 275 with the range extender. I just read BMW think they can double that by 2020. Tesla certainly has at least some competition.

They tore down the i3 and showed some really interesting manufacturing techniques.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDr4L6BzpP8

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#106

Post by vinay427 »

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #52
vinay427 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the original rationale behind requiring cars to be sold through dealers was to regulate the market and create competition among different dealers. Without that requirement, manufacturers could easily undercut dealers due to lower overhead. I'm not really sure what the point of car dealers is, but they have somehow found a way to prove themselves "necessary" to some lawmakers in…

> I'm not really sure what the point of car dealers is From a DOJ analysis: > Auto production is a capital-intensive business and a franchise system allowed manufacturers to concentrate their resources upstream while accessing capital through franchise fees from independent entrepreneurs at the retail level. Given capital availability and resources at the time, it made sense for the auto makers to franchise. https://…

Thank you for responding to my confusion with this excellent article. It is intriguing to me that increased information on pricing and availability through the Internet has already eroded some of the benefits of dealership regulation. Perhaps they are a dying breed even with protective regulation that at least in the past proved mutually beneficial for automakers and dealerships.

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#107

Post by desireco42 »

fma wrote: post #102
desireco42 wrote: post #62

Look, it takes some guts of this journalists to come up with titles like this and writing articles. I wish all this electric cars best of success, but 'taking on Tesla', this is not some small irrelevant company, let's be real here. Tesla is leaps and bounds ahead of everyone, not only with having electric car, but also this car is like from future.

TSLA produces 2,000 per week. GM produces close to 10 million cars per year. Calculating that out, it's 192307 per week...almost 100x. TSLA isn't irrelevant, but definitely small. BTW GM is selling a mass produced 100% electric vehicle. You can have one in your driveway before the end of the year. $30k after tax incentive, 255 miles per charge (more than Tesla Model 3) http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/21/chevy-bolt-go…

I can have Tesla in my driveway tomorrow if I buy one. Tesla dominates luxury category, GM has a lot of catching up to do.

Also, it is not just that it is electric car, have you been in one, it is like from the future. No other car is like that.

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#108

Post by Reason077 »

__michaelg wrote: post #98
rsync wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Audi, BMW, Volkswagen and Peugeot all sell electric or hybrid-electric cars." Audi has a A3-etron which is not an electric car. Maybe they have some $500k etron-R8 but I am not sure if they ever built that. BMW has the i3 which is kind of interesting, in a low-production-run, dip-your-toe-in-the-market kind of way. i8 is not an electric car. Some hybrids. Who cares. Volkswagen has the e-golf which, in a sense, is mo…

> I don't know anything about Peugeot. Probably hybrids so who cares. YTD in Germany, Renault sold twice as many purely electric cars (1836 Zoes) as Tesla (978 Model S and 56 Model X.) Source: https://www.goingelectric.de/zulassungszahlen/2016/ (in German only, sorry; data is coming from Germany's DOT)

He was probably thinking of Renault, not Peugeot. The Renault Zoe is one of the most popular EVs in Europe. (Why? It looks cool, drives well, and it's cheap!)

I don't think Peugeot have done anything much notable in EVs recently.

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#109

Post by bane »

dorito_chimp wrote: post #70
rebootthesystem wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The i3 and i8 are terrible cars as far as I am concerned. Range sucks. And, frankly, if I have to go to a gas station might as well get rid of the electric components and make a nice car. I like the physical design of the i8. I spent a hour looking at one. Ultimately, the idea of having to endure both visiting a gas station and plugging in just turned me off. I'd consider it as a pure electric with decent range or ga…

That's a very odd statement to make. Most people like the reassurance/range-security of being able to visit a gas station in addition to having an electrical engine. That's supposed to be a selling point of the car over Tesla even though it's electrical range sucks and Tesla's extensive supercharger network all but removes range anxiety.

Some of the newer hybrid drivetrains, like the new Honda Accord Hybrids, are basically electric cars mated to a gas powered generator and instead of a big battery just have a gas tank - a smaller battery bank "caches" the generated energy. Thus you only take it to the gas station every ~600 miles and don't bother the rest of the time.

(and yes, the gas engine in this kind of drivetrain will mate to the electric motors during power intensive operations for a boost, but that's not strictly required in this kind of approach)

Re: Kreisel Electric takes on Tesla

#110

Post by Reason077 »

kangman wrote: post #48
Brakenshire wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The i3 appears to be a really well designed car. It costs about $7000 more than the model 3, but it already exists. And they've just increased the battery capacity 50%, so the nominal range is 200 miles, or 275 with the range extender. I just read BMW think they can double that by 2020. Tesla certainly has at least some competition.

Not a fan of the design though. I'm sure it's functional but to my eyes it looks more frankencar than daily driver.

I think the i3 is one of the coolest looking small cars around. It is distinctive, and the designers clearly made a choice to go for a design that would get noticed. I do think it looks better in all-black, rather than the two-tone colors.

It's easily one of the most popular EVs here in the UK (along with the Tesla, Renault Zoe, and Nissan Leaf). Very nice to drive with a stylish, comfortable, minimalist, premium-quality interior. BMW's software does let it down, though - at least when compared to a Tesla.

But still, i'd argue if you want an EV and can't afford a Tesla, it's the best option available right now (at least until the Bolt is released).

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