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House Passes Employee Stock Options Bill Aimed at Startups

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Re: House Passes Employee Stock Options Bill Aimed at Startups

#201
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be perfectly honest, this bill affects mostly middle class near as I can tell. The following is entirely personal understanding of my own stock option agreement and is subject to mistakes and misconceptions...so someone can feel free to correct me. The problem this bill targets is the "exercise tax" interaction. Say you are an employee at a start up. Said start up can't afford your full normal salary so they pay y…

You have the gist right but a couple of corrections: 1) The board doesn't set the price arbitrarily. They engage a 3rd party accounting firm to do a 409A evaluation of the company. The 3rd party essentially sets the price. It's true that determining a market price for private company stock is just as much art as science but it's not completely arbitrary. 2) The company ABSOLUTELY CANNOT offer stock options at a disco…

> 2) The company ABSOLUTELY CANNOT offer stock options at a discount to the 409A. There is a good chance people would go to jail these days if they did that.

Absolutely false. A company can create an option, a warrant, etc. with whatever kind of terms it likes, so long as the board approves and it's permitted by the applicable state law and charter.

The only thing a 409(a) valuation does is provide a "safe harbor" for the company and the employee, that allows them both to rely on the valuation as fair market value for tax & accounting purposes (for the company, so that it doesn't need to expense the option; for the employee, so that there's not an immediate taxable gain upon vesting).

The board, in fact, can make its own determination of fair market value without a 409(a) valuation. But if they do that, they blow their safe harbor and the burden of proof is on them if the IRS comes knocking. So no competent counsel is going to let you go around making up your own FMV.

Finally, I'm pretty sure that a board could even issue options that didn't even pretend to be at FMV, but were at some unconstrained number. There's very good reason, for example, to issue out-of-the-money options when you want people to have skin in the game. There's probably some conceivable reason to issue an in-the-money option, too. (If you do this, though, you are likely condemning both your company and your optionee to a pretty dark slog through the thickets of tax law.)

It is true that there were some criminal (and civil) sanctions tossed around for options shenanigans in the dot com 1.0 days, but they were mainly due to public companies blatantly back-dating options to specific days when the stock price was down, so as to provide guaranteed value to options recipients, without the company needing properly to account for the expense.

Re: House Passes Employee Stock Options Bill Aimed at Startups

#202

The original point of ISOs was to offer to employees the opportunity to take an economic risk with stock options (by exercising and paying for the stock at the bargain price) while avoiding the tax risk (by generally not recognizing ordinary income from that exercise and being taxed only at the time the stock was sold, and then only as a capital gains tax). AMT has since emerged to devour the value of this benefit. B…

A friend of mine got caught that way. He wound up owing more tax than his net worth, even though he'd never had that "income" from the options. He had to make a deal with the IRS, lost everything he had, and had to start over (despite being middle aged).

Re: House Passes Employee Stock Options Bill Aimed at Startups

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see... So what should in theory fix it is if the company granting you the options also provided a guarantee that they will buy shares from you should you be inclined to sell them (A sort of a "sell at current price" option I suppose). This way you can exercise the options, and sell enough shares to cover the tax obligation and hang on to the rest.

Bookmarked to come back later to add detail. There is a better way where your company lets you exercise all your options immediately when you're hired, and you return non-vested shares when you leave.

Link to relevant solutions on previous Hacker News post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2623777

Re: House Passes Employee Stock Options Bill Aimed at Startups

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intuit is a pretty funny company. They try to make TurboTax as simple as possible for the average American (most Americans can fill out a 1040EZ and be done in minutes), but at the same time try to make taxes as complicated as possible so that they can sell services around that. It's both smart and infuriating .

Intuit's position isn't necessarily pro-complexity, they'd actually prefer the tax code simplified somewhat, because they'd need far fewer employees to update the tax code information in the software every year. The lobbying is to keep the IRS from A) releasing free 1040EZ/A software and B) keep the IRS from simplifying even further and just sending you a bill, like HMRC does.

[deleted]

Re: House Passes Employee Stock Options Bill Aimed at Startups

#208
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the current meme on Hacker News, but IMHO the pendulum has swung too far. You should absolutely be very careful about working for an early-stage startup as an employee and taking options or equity in lieu of part of your salary. You should feel that you trust the founders. You should insist that they've figured out a.) who their customers are b.) why they want the product and c.) how to make money, and have s…

I disagree. The optimal long term strategy for managing a portfolio of independent investments is to always pick a mix that maximizes the expected value of the log of your net worth. This leads to a more conservative investment strategy than the naive "maximize your expected value", and explains such things as why money-losing investments into buying insurance can be a really good idea. In general this is probably no…

How does the expected value of the log of your net worth deal with the possibility of a negative net worth? Any finite probability of zero net worth will weigh infinitely in the log domain, right?

Re: House Passes Employee Stock Options Bill Aimed at Startups

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: do you think you could have chosen that companies were not "losing bargains" seven years ago? How many companies are there today that you think would grant you significant equity and also will reach liquidity in the next seven years? How would this change if you were an early twenty-something with few connections and little savings? Off the top of my head I can only think of a handful of companies to…

Obviously I didn't choose right - the first two startups I worked for both failed. And then I was like "Never again" - I was the voice on HN saying that early employees get screwed, c. 2008 - and that blanket prohibition made me miss out on being employee #2 at DropBox (along with 10 or so other startups that went nowhere). More to the point, though - I don't think that the point of a career should be to minimize ris…

> and that blanket prohibition made me miss out on being employee #2 at DropBox (along with 10 or so other startups that went nowhere).

That seems to have worked out ok, though, if you only had a 1/11ish chance of jumping on a startup being the right decision at that time, anyway. It doesn't dissuade me from the "options are most likely worthless, and akin to a lottery" viewpoint.

However...

> I think that your goal, when you're a 20-something with few connections and little savings, should be to gain experience as quickly as possible.

This is good advice, and I'm no longer in the 20-something bucket myself, but the trap I see friends among that group falling into these days is jumping from the "akin to a lottery" thing into a "I'm going to gather as many tickets as possible" job-hop-every-year strategy.

The downside is they aren't gaining much useful experience, and their "connections" are mainly just to an insular group of VC-funded founders and other inexperienced engineers. Being the most experienced engineer (with 2 years of experience before joining) at a company of 20 people with all the other engineers being straight out of school isn't particularly useful experience. You can make it work, but it's much harder - nobody to learn from, no mentor, etc. And if the projects you're working on are just basic social or game apps over and over, your experience isn't very deep.

So if that tight-knit pool dries up... what are you bringing to the table when you're looking for a job at somewhere a bit larger and more stable?

Re: House Passes Employee Stock Options Bill Aimed at Startups

#210
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the current meme on Hacker News, but IMHO the pendulum has swung too far. You should absolutely be very careful about working for an early-stage startup as an employee and taking options or equity in lieu of part of your salary. You should feel that you trust the founders. You should insist that they've figured out a.) who their customers are b.) why they want the product and c.) how to make money, and have s…

I disagree. The optimal long term strategy for managing a portfolio of independent investments is to always pick a mix that maximizes the expected value of the log of your net worth. This leads to a more conservative investment strategy than the naive "maximize your expected value", and explains such things as why money-losing investments into buying insurance can be a really good idea. In general this is probably no…

Maximizing the log of X is the same as maximizing X.
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