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How does Google know where I am?

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Re: How does Google know where I am?

#41

Post by packetslave »

dragonwriter wrote: post #37
tdkl wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fine, it's evil, append "_nomap" to your SSID string. That's fine for stopping Google, This should be opt-in by default in sane universe, not opt-out.

I'd agree, if you mean broadcasting an SSID should be opt-in by default, but not if you mean having a publicly broadcast SSID be mapped should be opt-in by default separately from broadcasting the SSID. OTOH, to the extent this is not true, its ISPs and router manufacturers who are at fault.

if broadcasting SSID was not on by default, mom and dad would be screaming at tech support that wifi isn't "working" on their phone because the network isn't in the list of discovered networks.

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#42

Post by kllrnohj »

comboy wrote: post #17
pawadu wrote: post #5

This is not tower triangulation. Android searches for access points even when wifi is turned off. If anyone (with GPS enabled) uses that wifi with any google services the bssid will end up in their database. Also if the google car has been nearby it has recorded the presence of the wifi access point at that location [1]. Before you freak out: Apple and Microsoft also use access point information for positioning, alth…

Are you sure they do that when wifi is off? I was under the impression that it only happens when wifi is on (and it seems to me that my location on the map is more stable with wifi on). That would be very not ok if it would happen with wifi off. I turn my wifi off to save the battery, and it wouldn't do much if it was still looking for broadcasts.

> I turn my wifi off to save the battery

Sending/receiving data over wifi takes roughly ~8x less power than sending/receiving data over cell.

If you want to save battery you need to turn off data entirely not turn off wifi. Turning off wifi ultimately costs you battery.

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#43

Post by memogarcia »

andybak wrote: post #31
gohrt wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk to your government, or organize a boycott threat. Your house is also visible in Street View, for precisely the same reason: It transmits electromagnetic waves that are visible from public roads.

Not mine. I've painted the whole thing with Vantablack®

Just created an account to update this comment

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#44

Post by jasonkostempski »

tuxracer wrote: post #36
comboy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure they do that when wifi is off? I was under the impression that it only happens when wifi is on (and it seems to me that my location on the map is more stable with wifi on). That would be very not ok if it would happen with wifi off. I turn my wifi off to save the battery, and it wouldn't do much if it was still looking for broadcasts.

WiFi is never completely off until you disable "Scanning always available" https://i.stack.imgur.com/wcQkc.png

I don't have that option under "Advanced Wi-Fi" but under Settings -> Location -> Scanning I have "Wi-Fi Scanning Improve location by allowing system apps and services to detect Wi-Fi networks at any time". Is that the same thing?

Nexus 5X, Android 7.0

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#45

Post by kuschku »

RKearney wrote: post #14
awalGarg wrote: post #9

From the comments section of the top-voted answer: > Something you didn't mention: when a Google-car goes around taking pictures for StreetView it also maps the location and all wifi networks name. So taking a new router with a new network name from a different ISP might work, but only until they come near your house to update their pictures... > - Bakuriu I am not sure how this makes me feel :-|

You could create a faraday cage around your home to prevent your Wi-Fi signals from broadcasting outside your home. Otherwise I don't really see the issue with Google picking up signals from the street that people blast outside the extents of their homes.

So I can go around with a telezoom lens attached to a drone and photograph into every backyard, into every window, photograph people naked in the shower, children changing clothes on 21st floor thinking no one will look, etc – and publish that?

Or maybe we as society do already have reasonable limits where "publicly available" is not equivalent to "publicly indexable".

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#46

Post by DominikR »

paavokoya wrote: post #32
TeMPOraL wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on. There have to be some minimum standards of knowledge required for the citizens of a technological society, and I'd argue that "how radio works" is one of those things one should be expected to know.

minimum standards of knowledge required for the citizens Do you know how the electricity in your wall works? What about the plumbing under your house? Would you be able to fix those things on your own?

His argument was that you can reasonably expect people to know how to handle such technologies safely, not that he expects people to know how to build a WiFi Router from electronic parts themselves.

Using your analogy it would be sufficient for a person to know how to handle electricity coming from your wall or the plumbing under your house safely. And generally people do know how to do that.

Everyone who is regularly using WiFi networks knows that he/she can see the names of other WiFi networks in their vicinity. Therefore people using WiFi generally do know that this information is publicly broadcasted and available to be collected by anyone interested in doing so.

No one believes that he is the only person being able to somehow magically see the name of his neighbours WiFi.

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#47

Post by Sir_Cmpwn »

awalGarg wrote: post #9

From the comments section of the top-voted answer: > Something you didn't mention: when a Google-car goes around taking pictures for StreetView it also maps the location and all wifi networks name. So taking a new router with a new network name from a different ISP might work, but only until they come near your house to update their pictures... > - Bakuriu I am not sure how this makes me feel :-|

I think I'm just going to start using a hiden wifi network.

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#48

Post by dogma1138 »

binoct wrote: post #20
leot wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a citation on phones using inertial navigation?

I'd also be curious to see a reference for Orientation/heading from a phone's gyroscope/compass can be pretty reasonable, but most mems accelerometers are pretty much crap for dead reckoning use when loosely attached to a person. I could definitely see some interesting ideas with cell tower position data + heading + pedometer estimation getting merged, but I have a hard time believing that works in practice.

This isn't using a "pedometer" this is fusing the input from multiple sensors like gyro, accelerometer, magnetometer, barometer etc. as well as other location data (wifi/gps/cellular/beacons etc.) and extrapolating the location using a path prediction algorithm.

Given a known starting point, or a known point in general this increases both the speed and accuracy of identifying your location considerably even outdoors.

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#49

Post by cstejerean »

pawadu wrote: post #5

This is not tower triangulation. Android searches for access points even when wifi is turned off. If anyone (with GPS enabled) uses that wifi with any google services the bssid will end up in their database. Also if the google car has been nearby it has recorded the presence of the wifi access point at that location [1]. Before you freak out: Apple and Microsoft also use access point information for positioning, alth…

Apple uses wifi for positioning but only while wifi is turned on. It does not use it while wifi is turned off. It sounds like in android there is a separate setting that allows wifi scanning to happen in the background for positioning even while wifi is turned off. Not sure if that's better or worse.

Re: How does Google know where I am?

#50

Post by tdkl »

dragonwriter wrote: post #37
tdkl wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fine, it's evil, append "_nomap" to your SSID string. That's fine for stopping Google, This should be opt-in by default in sane universe, not opt-out.

I'd agree, if you mean broadcasting an SSID should be opt-in by default, but not if you mean having a publicly broadcast SSID be mapped should be opt-in by default separately from broadcasting the SSID. OTOH, to the extent this is not true, its ISPs and router manufacturers who are at fault.

I've meant sharing the location of the SSID with $company should be opt-in. Who the fuck do they think they are?
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