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Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

nature.com

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Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#51

Post by soundwave106 »

davidf18 wrote: post #47
nickpinkston wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blindness of privilege: > I paid for 90% of tuition/housing/living expenses by programming computers beginning in high school. It's commendable that OP did this - that's great and plenty of people have squandered their gifts unlike him. However, just because funding is available doesn't mean people aren't at a disadvantage due to their situation. Does OP really believe that you're on equal ground if you: - Live i…

While my HS did have a course in computer programming taught by a very good teacher, a computer scientist, I learned to program before then. These days one can purchase a Chromebook for about $200 to $300 and put Linux on that and program open source. I know someone who has a nice Mac, but actually I see him mostly with his 13" Chromebook programming C++ on Linux. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-…

It's not just cash and computing devices we are talking about. It's home environment. Home environment is a huge factor on education success.

My mother and sister both do some one on one tutoring of kindergarten age economically disadvantaged children. They've told me about the kids that come in that you can tell are very bright. But due to some of the factors like described in the previous post (eg the stressed out single mom who is always working and has less time to do things like reading with their kids etc., the less safe environment, or even just parents that for whatever reason don't know how to engage in that way), many times they still often come in significantly behind. Which makes sense. If your family actively engages their children in learning from the start, you're going to be better prepared.

Is it possible to overcome that? Yes, but not by simply throwing a Chromebook at them. The good news for instance is that this type of volunteer-led tutoring seems to work very decently at closing some of the gap (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/can-volunteer...). So I think it's going to take more or less solutions in that direction.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#52

Post by Fomite »

refurb wrote: post #34
bbctol wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The low pay for scientists is very definitely related to it not being an accessible path for lower classes.

That doesn't make sense to me. If it were a more accessible path, then you'd have more scientists (supply), the same demand and lower wages.

The way science is currently set up, the only people who can take unpaid "research experience" positions etc. in undergrad that have a huge impact on their career trajectories are people who know the bills are being paid some other way.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#53

Post by yodsanklai »

dorfsmay wrote: post #2

I'm actually surprised well-off students choose science over well-paying careers given that it is well known that there is no money in research. My own kids and their friends often express that science is interesting but they won't get into it because of that.

> I'm actually surprised well-off students choose science over well-paying careers given that it is well known that there is no money in research.

Most of them don't. But not everybody is materialistic or subject to social pressure.

Actually, what annoys me the most as a professor isn't the (comparatively) low salary but the lack of recognition. My family always blames me for not pursuing a more lucrative path and don't understand what I do and what purpose it serves.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#54

Post by tnecniv »

dorfsmay wrote: post #2

I'm actually surprised well-off students choose science over well-paying careers given that it is well known that there is no money in research. My own kids and their friends often express that science is interesting but they won't get into it because of that.

I'd rather get paid below market value (considering either my current career path or an alternate I could have chosen) and do interesting work every day than get paid a lot and work long hours doing something I hate.

My father made the opposite choice and regrets it every day now that his career is coming to a close.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#55

Post by davidf18 »

soundwave106 wrote: post #51
davidf18 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While my HS did have a course in computer programming taught by a very good teacher, a computer scientist, I learned to program before then. These days one can purchase a Chromebook for about $200 to $300 and put Linux on that and program open source. I know someone who has a nice Mac, but actually I see him mostly with his 13" Chromebook programming C++ on Linux. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-…

It's not just cash and computing devices we are talking about. It's home environment. Home environment is a huge factor on education success. My mother and sister both do some one on one tutoring of kindergarten age economically disadvantaged children. They've told me about the kids that come in that you can tell are very bright. But due to some of the factors like described in the previous post (eg the stressed out…

I understanding what you are referring to but the point of the article was asking if people who come with low economic background are shut out of science research and the answer is no. True, there are some people with an unfortunate backgrounds in this country and every country, and it is great that people are helping them, but there are many who have little money including the immigrants that I mentioned, but those who are not immigrants as well and they are able to get science and engineering degrees at quality schools thanks to relatively low tuitions, and grants and government-based low-interest loans.

The Nature story is decidedly sensationalistic or the writer(s) didn't do their research. I think they should come to NYC and interview the students at CUNY and other NYC public colleges. Most of these students come from families without resources.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#56

Post by dorfsmay »

clifanatic wrote: post #33
dorfsmay wrote: post #2

I'm actually surprised well-off students choose science over well-paying careers given that it is well known that there is no money in research. My own kids and their friends often express that science is interesting but they won't get into it because of that.

> I'm actually surprised well-off students choose science If you have a trust fund waiting for you, you can pursue idealistic dreams of changing the world rather than worrying about what will be most likely to leave you with enough money to eat.

Given the numbers in the article, I assume upper middle class (can there be that many rich people!)

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#57

Post by dsacco »

tnecniv wrote: post #54
dorfsmay wrote: post #2

I'm actually surprised well-off students choose science over well-paying careers given that it is well known that there is no money in research. My own kids and their friends often express that science is interesting but they won't get into it because of that.

I'd rather get paid below market value (considering either my current career path or an alternate I could have chosen) and do interesting work every day than get paid a lot and work long hours doing something I hate. My father made the opposite choice and regrets it every day now that his career is coming to a close.

>>I'd rather get paid below market value (considering either my current career path or an alternate I could have chosen) and do interesting work every day than get paid a lot and work long hours doing something I hate.

It's important to note that the spectrum you laid out has two other "corners". Many PhDs do mind-numbingly boring work, even if it's original research, while getting paid a pittance.

Conversely, there are many ways to do fascinating, intellectually vigorous and challenging work every day with only a Bachelor's or Master's qualification while getting rich.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#58

Post by ForHackernews »

kaitai wrote: post #13

As I write this, there are just a small number of comments, all saying "there's no money in research" and "scientists are paid less than McDonald's burger flipper". It's like a whole section of disgruntled grad students who wanted to be professors. There is tons of money in science! People who "fail out" of or never wanted to pursue the stupid academic dream become active in patent law, become managers at pharma and…

> work as lab techs

That job pays miserably relative to the education required, and it's usually incredibly dull. Do you like pipetting? How about washing test tubes?

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#59

Post by zo1 »

nickpinkston wrote: post #44
davidf18 wrote: post #35

From the article: > Last year, Christina Quasney was close to giving up. A biochemistry major at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, Quasney's background was anything but privileged. People with little family money get free grants and low-interest government backed loans to attend college. She is attending a public university. In NYC, there are many students that are attending City University of New York an…

The blindness of privilege: > I paid for 90% of tuition/housing/living expenses by programming computers beginning in high school. It's commendable that OP did this - that's great and plenty of people have squandered their gifts unlike him. However, just because funding is available doesn't mean people aren't at a disadvantage due to their situation. Does OP really believe that you're on equal ground if you: - Live i…

You can't easily fix a broken culture from the outside. All people need to be treated equally, above all else, including race, gender, beliefs, and economic status (yes). I simply think it is unfair to nullify and demean the good work that hard-working individuals have done. By claiming that their position in life is a product of "privilege" or their parent's privilege, and simply giving those that did not do said hard work a free pass and cash.

Those are the beliefs, uncomfortable or not, and as is often the case with this type of topic, they are the products of a fundamentally different view of the world. I am not here to fix cosmic injustices using further injustice, nor do I want my tax money going towards it either.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#60

Post by zo1 »

trapperkeeper79 wrote: post #41
shae wrote: post #27

I'd like to go get a PhD and teach, but it pays less than half of what I make as a software dev. I wish I could somehow teach science & tech and also make money.

Serious suggestion .. start a youtube channel. I do most of my learning that way (and I do have a PhD).

Or donate to a group that can do said teaching for you. Personally, I donate to Khan Academy.
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