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New iPhone Agreement Bans Flash-to-iPhone Compiler & Others

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Re: New iPhone Agreement Bans Flash-to-iPhone Compiler & Others

#471

Post by bnkr0 »

Peelman wrote: post #326
Silhouette wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is entirely about protecting Apple's own interests and the comparison to Nintendo's lock down of the NES is not applicable. What I don't understand is how this isn't anticompetitive behaviour. By creating an app store and lock-in for application vendors, Apple become the only provider in the market. They now appear to be leveraging that monopoly to restrict another market, that of developer tools, to their com…

Apple's market is one of their own making, and is in fact something of a submarket. They control the platform, period, and when you agree to the terms of their developer agreement, you agree to be bound by them, so you are subject to the same rules as everybody else. They don't have any market monopolized, they merely have their corner of the market locked down. and they aren't locking in any body. You don't forfeit…

Adobe apps function great on windows and better than Macs on linux... have you ever considered the fact that your overpriced mac is what sucks? no - cause Jobs told you it was Adobe's fault.

Re: New iPhone Agreement Bans Flash-to-iPhone Compiler & Others

#472

Post by gregbulmash »

raganwald wrote: post #46

Getting away from the frenzied rhetoric, my opinion is that what Apple really wants to prevent is people releasing multi-platform compilers. So taking Flash as just one example, if I can build one app and the compiler can make me an iPhone executable, an Android executable, and so forth, Apple don't want that. In my experience so far with such "cross platform compatibility layers," they always produce results that wa…

Imagine if Microsoft had come out with an App Store for Windows 7 and decreed that the only way to run apps on Windows 7 was to get them from the Microsoft App Atore. If you wanted to create apps for Windows 7, you'd have to use Visual Studio and a Microsoft compiler, you'd have to pay an annual fee to be a an accepted Microsoft App Store developer, and if you wanted to charge for your application, you'd have to pay Microsoft a 30% commission on the sale price.

People would lose their damn minds.

If you're the dominant OS in the smartphone market or in the desktop market, where's the difference?

Apple has to unlock the iPhone and let people get their apps from wherever they want.

If people want the security of knowing an app is Apple approved to work and play nice with others on their systems, they can go through the App Store.

It's not their rules, but the fact that they remove choice from the market for both consumers and developers by FORCING themselves into the consumer/developer relationship as a restrictive middleman.

Re: New iPhone Agreement Bans Flash-to-iPhone Compiler & Others

#473

Post by stevenN »

gregbulmash wrote: post #472
raganwald wrote: post #46

Getting away from the frenzied rhetoric, my opinion is that what Apple really wants to prevent is people releasing multi-platform compilers. So taking Flash as just one example, if I can build one app and the compiler can make me an iPhone executable, an Android executable, and so forth, Apple don't want that. In my experience so far with such "cross platform compatibility layers," they always produce results that wa…

Imagine if Microsoft had come out with an App Store for Windows 7 and decreed that the only way to run apps on Windows 7 was to get them from the Microsoft App Atore. If you wanted to create apps for Windows 7, you'd have to use Visual Studio and a Microsoft compiler, you'd have to pay an annual fee to be a an accepted Microsoft App Store developer, and if you wanted to charge for your application, you'd have to pay…

But Apple is NOT the dominate OS.

1) Symbian 2) RIM 3) Apple 4) MS 5) Android

Android and MS might have swapped in the last month or so. They are close. As for choice, consumes don't seem to mind. You have tons of "choice" on Symbian, Android and WM for app selection. The AppStore is beating them all.

Developers will go where the money is. It is a job. You play by the rules or move on. Simple really.

Re: New iPhone Agreement Bans Flash-to-iPhone Compiler & Others

#474

Post by stevenN »

gromitski wrote: post #279
raganwald wrote: post #46

Getting away from the frenzied rhetoric, my opinion is that what Apple really wants to prevent is people releasing multi-platform compilers. So taking Flash as just one example, if I can build one app and the compiler can make me an iPhone executable, an Android executable, and so forth, Apple don't want that. In my experience so far with such "cross platform compatibility layers," they always produce results that wa…

I'm sorry but that is a terrible excuse for what they've done. As a flash developer hit hard by the recession, having another (strong) string in my bow was essential for survival. Like others in my industry, I don't have time to completely re-train every time a new product comes onto the market. Being able to produce for a different device using my current skills is a blessing. Apple should be thoroughly ashamed with…

I thought of doing the same thing with my Pl/M experience. Decided to learn new tool sets/languages instead:-)

You will find your self in serious trouble moving forward if you tie yourself to only knowing a single company's toolset and tying your future to the well being of that companies tool set. Especially Adobe's; a company as fickle as Apple.

Re: New iPhone Agreement Bans Flash-to-iPhone Compiler & Others

#475

Post by slashdotdot »

raganwald wrote: post #46

Getting away from the frenzied rhetoric, my opinion is that what Apple really wants to prevent is people releasing multi-platform compilers. So taking Flash as just one example, if I can build one app and the compiler can make me an iPhone executable, an Android executable, and so forth, Apple don't want that. In my experience so far with such "cross platform compatibility layers," they always produce results that wa…

I presume all these other programming environments allow one to target the iPhone/Pad/Pod using a PC. Is Apple, with all their (new) clauses, trying to say in a round-about way "If yer wanna target our iDevices, buy a Mac"..? After all, Mac sales is where they make the most money.

Re: New iPhone Agreement Bans Flash-to-iPhone Compiler & Others

#476

Post by m234 »

bdotdub wrote: post #439
eru wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But it seems silly from Apple to restrict all iPhone developers to a (very) short whitelist of languages.

Howso? They've spent the money and the time to create a great platform. It seems well within their rights to dictate a lot of the rules around what goes on the platform they created. And as mentioned above, they dont have a monopoly in the market so, from Apple's perspective, 'if you don't like it, there are other opportunities' ... developing for the bberry :)

"They've spent the money and the time to create a great platform."

They've spent some money and time, and they have taken a lot of other people's work: Mach, gcc, Smalltalk, BSD, etc.

"they dont have a monopoly in the market"

That's not so clear to me. I own an iPhone and an iPad even though I think they really suck technically. But there is content available for them that simply is not available for other platforms.

Re: New iPhone Agreement Bans Flash-to-iPhone Compiler & Others

#477

Post by m234 »

stevenN wrote: post #467
keeperofkeys wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great platform it may be, but this rule is insane. Who cares how the compiled code was produced? What matters is how it runs on the platform.

OK. I come from a different background of programming than traditional consumer apps. In my "normal" job, I get a very small white list of programming languages. "C", "C++" (but no templates, multiple inheritance, no operator over-loading), "ADA", Assembly. Within each of these areas I am not allowed specific features. Recursion. OMG. I did that once and never again. Big nono. Even a simple things like: if (A && B) {…

Programming isn't a game for many people, it's a profession. The time you spend on learning their platform and languages are sunk costs, and you need to recoup them through money-making products. By restricting developers to their APIs and languages, they are trying to lock in developers and users.

Apple is trying to accomplish the same kind of lock-in that Microsoft managed with Windows. And we better nip this thing in the bud, because Apple would screw us even worse than Microsoft has.

Re: New iPhone Agreement Bans Flash-to-iPhone Compiler & Others

#478

Post by m234 »

cschep wrote: post #141
Zak wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has consistently demonstrated that they don't care about what developers want. They seem to believe, and have so far been shown to be correct that if they can get the consumers, developers will follow. The only way I can see this changing is if a killer app that consumers want becomes available on another platform and not iPhone OS due to Apple's restrictions.

I think you're forgetting that it's also really fun to make an app that has the best "look and feel". I can make things that make people say "Wow." A lot easier on the iPhone than on Android. Developers will make apps where it is fun to make apps. I haven't had any horror stories with the app store, so it's still just more fun to make iPhone software than anything else.

You really think developing software in 25 year old technologies (Objective-C, Cocoa) is fun???

Re: New iPhone Agreement Bans Flash-to-iPhone Compiler & Others

#479

Post by jabbathewocket »

fantazio wrote: post #453
gthank wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all likelihood, Apple would argue—successfully—that the market should not be defined as the "iPhone software" market but as the "smartphone software" market, at which point they no longer have a monopoly and are no longer subject to anti-trust scrutiny. What gets interesting is when/if Apple's dominance continues to grow to the point that the "iPhone software" market is effectively the "smartphone software" market…

>> In all likelihood, Apple would argue—successfully—that the market should not be defined as the "iPhone software" market but as the "smartphone software" market, at which point they no longer have a monopoly and are no longer subject to anti-trust scrutiny. "Apple responsible for 99.4% of mobile app sales in 2009" http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/01/apple-responsible-... ... it doesn't take a Phd to acknowled…

OK this is a common failing in minds of laymen..

The fact that 99.4 cents of every dollar spent "after the hardware purchase" goes to apple platform.. doesn't make it a monopoly.. it merely means that it is the most successful add-on market..

A good example for comparison.. is a bit old, but illustrates this particular point beautifully.

The fact that more companies are interested in producing add-on stuff for a product and that consumers are more interested in BUYING that stuff.. doesn't mean that a company is anti competitive/antitrust regulated/a monopoly..

Volkswagen beetle aftermarket parts spent some 30+ years as the king of aftermarket parts .. everything from "third party" replacement oem style parts (stuff that matched the original but was cheaper for whatever reason) as well as stuff that essentially completely changed the product into something else (dune buggy conversions, engine swaps, totally different interiors, etc)

Was VW a monopoly because for 30 years 4 out of every 5 dollars spent on "aftermarket parts" was spent on Beetle bits? no and no one ever thought to consider or call it one.. it was just a hugely successful model that didn't change every 11 months, and therefore was a fixed point in space for manufacturers to target.. but more importantly CONSUMERS WHERE BUYING.. as opposed to your avg Ford/GM/Chrysler buyer who for the most part do NOT just go out and buy total conversion kits/hopped up engine parts.. there where many manufacturers who made parts for various successful models such as muscle cars over the years, and still do.. they didn't cry about antitrust because VW add-on makers made more money, nor did they cry that VW should change the way they made the beetle so that "beetle engines" would fit in any car (or vice versa)

There is NO ONE who could bring a class-action and win, and there is no way that adobe could sue and win either.

Because "customer choices" when they have real choice, do not make a monopoly, rather removing customer choice creates a monopoly.

Re: New iPhone Agreement Bans Flash-to-iPhone Compiler & Others

#480

Post by m234 »

api wrote: post #15
icey wrote: post #8

I don't really have a politically correct way to say this: What a horseshit maneuver by Apple.

I have been a very loyal mac user for years and love it, but I'm seriously considering going back to Linux. I am not a free software "zealot" and don't mind some closed-ness, but this is getting absolutely insane. Enforcing which LANGUAGES can be used on a platform?!? Insane! Edit: I've been looking at these guys: http://www.system76.com/ (I don't work with or have any vested interest in them, but they look cool.)

Well, you're on the best way of becoming a "free software zealot". See, free software zealots by and large are what they are because they invested a ton of time and effort in some platform only to have that destroyed by a stupid or greedy management decision.
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