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Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

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Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#41
post #27

I'd like to go get a PhD and teach, but it pays less than half of what I make as a software dev. I wish I could somehow teach science & tech and also make money.

Serious suggestion .. start a youtube channel. I do most of my learning that way (and I do have a PhD).

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#42

i'm sorry, but technology is making access to science easy enough that "my high school can't afford to offer that bio class" excuse just doesn't work anymore. hell, even news aggs like google offer a science section every day.

I'm sorry, but you've clearly never taken an actual lab science course if you think it can be replaced by Google News.

i'm pretty sure that's exactly what i said.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#43
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what anyone else's story is, but for myself, everything was given to me by my parents. We weren't exactly rich, but I was certainly privileged. Whatever I asked for, I got. So, when a university education was given to me, I thought I could just "follow my dream" and not concern myself too much with making an income, because why should I? Making an income had never seemed like a concern, so I studied pure…

the easier kids have it during childhood, the harder the reality hits later (if ever). some frugality in upbringing instead of just throwing money on them to compensate lack of time spent with them goes much, much longer way

There is frugality based on necessity and there is frugality based on considering it a positive character trait. When necessity is dominant, the other kind of frugality rarely happens.

The former quickly breaks down in presence of money, but it is a great enabler for financial risk-taking. ("worst thing that can happen is that I have to go back to ramen", call it scalability of personal finances, if you like).

The latter is quite the opposite, it seeks financial peace of mind and will take stability over opportunity any time. People with this mindset will tend to find the solid, but not stellar pay scale of science rather attractive. Self selection happens.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#44

From the article: > Last year, Christina Quasney was close to giving up. A biochemistry major at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, Quasney's background was anything but privileged. People with little family money get free grants and low-interest government backed loans to attend college. She is attending a public university. In NYC, there are many students that are attending City University of New York an…

The blindness of privilege:

> I paid for 90% of tuition/housing/living expenses by programming computers beginning in high school.

It's commendable that OP did this - that's great and plenty of people have squandered their gifts unlike him.

However, just because funding is available doesn't mean people aren't at a disadvantage due to their situation.

Does OP really believe that you're on equal ground if you:

- Live in a ghetto, often with an stressed-out, overworked single Mom.

- Go to a shit school without adequate fucking literacy education - let alone programming classes.

- Have no family / friends who have professional jobs.

- Often fear for your physical and financial safety.

- You don't have a computer / internet at home.

This breads a very difficult kind of scarcity to dig yourself out of, and we need programs to help these kids get out. Cash is great, but not sufficient.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#45

From the article: > Last year, Christina Quasney was close to giving up. A biochemistry major at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, Quasney's background was anything but privileged. People with little family money get free grants and low-interest government backed loans to attend college. She is attending a public university. In NYC, there are many students that are attending City University of New York an…

The blindness of privilege: > I paid for 90% of tuition/housing/living expenses by programming computers beginning in high school. It's commendable that OP did this - that's great and plenty of people have squandered their gifts unlike him. However, just because funding is available doesn't mean people aren't at a disadvantage due to their situation. Does OP really believe that you're on equal ground if you: - Live i…

Does this article really concern people without 'adequate literacy'? They are not at a level they have to worry about university costs.

(Of course, their schools should be improved)

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#46
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would warn your optimism however, my wife is a lab manager (performs research, publishes, ostensibly as involved in the science as any PHD) but I would by no stretch of the word say she makes "good money"; both of us made more back when we were service workers. The perception in her group is that the positions that pay even close to tech (some of the ones you list, manager at pharma company etc) are almost paramoun…

It's definitely true that getting the manager at pharma company type jobs are hard to get, and lab managers are not paid super well. But: a clinical research manager has an average salary of about $94k in the US, while web developer not otherwise specified has an average salary of about $66k in the US. Restaurant manager comes down to $37k on average, Bath & Body Works retail manager comes up to $54k. Glassdoor lists…

A few thoughts.

- you're comparing what seems to be highly skilled vs. more unskilled labor; (as well as more typically PHD requiring vs not) which if anything seems to support my point given that frankly the pays are similar enough. (at least compared to the delta you'd make using higher education to go into industry)

- clinical managers (general lab managers as well, fwiw) are actually far more to the administrative side than the experimental side so it does not seem surprising that it biases upwards compared to pure researchers.

Jobwise, for myself, I built solutions for an astrophysics research group, hers was in applied psychology for certain classes of severely impaired patients.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#47

From the article: > Last year, Christina Quasney was close to giving up. A biochemistry major at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, Quasney's background was anything but privileged. People with little family money get free grants and low-interest government backed loans to attend college. She is attending a public university. In NYC, there are many students that are attending City University of New York an…

The blindness of privilege: > I paid for 90% of tuition/housing/living expenses by programming computers beginning in high school. It's commendable that OP did this - that's great and plenty of people have squandered their gifts unlike him. However, just because funding is available doesn't mean people aren't at a disadvantage due to their situation. Does OP really believe that you're on equal ground if you: - Live i…

While my HS did have a course in computer programming taught by a very good teacher, a computer scientist, I learned to program before then. These days one can purchase a Chromebook for about $200 to $300 and put Linux on that and program open source. I know someone who has a nice Mac, but actually I see him mostly with his 13" Chromebook programming C++ on Linux.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3...

Much of the issues mentioned are true of anyone that wants to go to college. But the article to me was about paying for college and ironically, the poor have more opportunities than the not so poor because of the Pell Grants and Stafford Loans.

At any rate, in NYC, I see students who were immigrants from disadvantaged backgrounds getting a top education at CUNY (and there are other low-cost schools in NYC).

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#48
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it a well-known phenomenon that the children of well-to-do parents often end up in the arts and other fields with high cultural capital? Having money allows you to not worry about money.

I was talking high end of middle class where kids will have to support themselves eventually. I think you're talking rich people where your "career" won't impact your standard of living (because of parents wealth).

Nope, not at all, talking about upper middle class folks. You're right that it doesn't necessarily make sense because the children will eventually have to take care of themselves, but it is what it is.

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#49

From the article: > Last year, Christina Quasney was close to giving up. A biochemistry major at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, Quasney's background was anything but privileged. People with little family money get free grants and low-interest government backed loans to attend college. She is attending a public university. In NYC, there are many students that are attending City University of New York an…

The blindness of privilege: > I paid for 90% of tuition/housing/living expenses by programming computers beginning in high school. It's commendable that OP did this - that's great and plenty of people have squandered their gifts unlike him. However, just because funding is available doesn't mean people aren't at a disadvantage due to their situation. Does OP really believe that you're on equal ground if you: - Live i…

The OP's point is that funding is not the issue.

You are correct to note that the real problem is that the poor are more likely to be bad people in general, and that they will drag down other poor folks. Poor people are likely to be bad parents (as you note) and are far more likely than non-poor people to engage in violence against friends, relatives and neighbors. No one disputes this.

The point is that it's not economics keeping people from the sciences.

(Here's some numbers on violence among poor people as compared to non-poor people: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hpnvv0812.pdf )

Re: Poverty and social background remain huge barriers in scientific careers

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but you've clearly never taken an actual lab science course if you think it can be replaced by Google News.

i'm pretty sure that's exactly what i said.

Then you were exceptionally unclear about it. What does Google News's science section have to do with anything? A newspaper's "science" section has little to do with real science.
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