Live data from Hacker News

Why don't black and white Americans live together?

bbc.com

51–60 of 102 posts

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#51
post #24
post #17

Oak Park is a suburb next to Chicago that managed to integrate fairly well, but when reading how it happened I was struck at how draconian it was handled. They purposefully wanted an integrated city and tried to sotftly limit or "steer" how many Black people moved in, and to spread them throughout the whole city. There were restrictions on who could sell your home. For sale signs were banned even. They expanded the p…

Same policy in Singapore. All government houses is distributed as such that people from all backgrounds (religions) get intermingled.

Any views on how well it worked and if it was a good idea?

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#52
post #24
post #17

Oak Park is a suburb next to Chicago that managed to integrate fairly well, but when reading how it happened I was struck at how draconian it was handled. They purposefully wanted an integrated city and tried to sotftly limit or "steer" how many Black people moved in, and to spread them throughout the whole city. There were restrictions on who could sell your home. For sale signs were banned even. They expanded the p…

Same policy in Singapore. All government houses is distributed as such that people from all backgrounds (religions) get intermingled.

Does this try to prevent immigrant neighborhoods from forming as well? In the US at least my perception is that immigrant neighborhoods that mainly have first and second generation residents are viewed much more favorably even though they are a form of segregation. The upshot is they allow people to find others that speak their language and stores that sell their food.

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a vicious cycle: good schools -> increase demand -> high home prices -> affluent residents -> more tax revenue -> better schools -> repeat The reverse happens with bad schools.

Is school funding distributed in such a small district that tax revenue in the district itself affects the school budget?

In many places in the US, this is the case, but not for the sample I was choosing (see my sibling reply).

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#54
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This already happened with predatory lending and sub-prime mortgages.

Unless I misunderstood various explanations of the sub-prime crisis, this is a Mount Olympus sized characterization is it not? "Favorable terms" doesn't implicitly mean a repeat of the multivariate conditions that caused the housing collapse, just as the housing collapse can't be strictly pinned on "favorable" mortgages. Welcome to correction here from a more informed perspective.

I'm saying that there at one time was a business opportunity for someone who wanted to setup a lending company that offers black families fair and favorable terms on mortgages. (Granted, there may be some gray area on 'fair and favorable').

Partially because of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and the Community Reinvestment Act, banks were incentivised. Black families were targeted by predatory lenders who knew the rules well enough to get the loans for the individuals, individuals who perhaps were not in an economic position to be able to fulfill the agreements of the loans, then resell them in mortgage backed securities. At the micro level, the Community Reinvestment Act was "a good thing". We as a society want everyone to have a home. However, it did have negative consequences at the macro level.

So there was a business opportunity at one time. Is there today? I don't know. And yes, it was probably an over-characterization.

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#55
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming a simplistic model where households swap locations (without handling population growth and new housing), a black household would have to move for every white household that moves.

Exactly - that's how I got the numbers above. 50% of the black population = 6% of the total population = 8.3% of the white population. My point is to assume self-interest on the part of the publication; it may or may not be representative of deeper unconscious bias in the population (there's no rule against both self-interest and unconscious bias being true), but a simpler explanation is that the Brookings Institute…

It seems reasonable to give the 50% statistic, because it may show why blacks may be more reluctant or unable to participate in this mass movement. It's easy for a white person to say sure, let's move, given that there's only an 8% chance of any specific white person having to actually move.

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#56

'According to the Brookings report, "more than half of blacks would need to move to achieve complete integration". Some have pointed out that the wording of this part of the report itself highlights the challenges in these issues - why can't this be measured in the number of whites who would have to move?' Because that would be a much less catchy soundbite. Assuming a 1:1 black-white switch, and that the population o…

Class plays a big role in why white migration is not considered a net good.

White migration does happen, and we call it gentrification, because it usually means wealthy young (mostly white) folks moving into poor neighborhoods on the edges of "cool" cities, causing rents to rise dramatically over a short period of time, and pushing out longtime residents who are too poor to afford to continue to live in the hip new neighborhood with fancy bistros and cat cafes (yes, there's really a cat cafe...it's in East Austin on the site of a business once owned by a Hispanic family whose business was bulldozed).

Integration almost has to go the other way, or it is more of a disruptive force, and a force for further damaging communities of color. Race and class are so closely correlated in the US that you can't talk about one without the other on most issues. In this case, it means that white people moving into a black or brown neighborhood are often displacing black or brown people who can no longer afford to live there, because wealthier whites have driven up rents (and home ownership among black and brown people is much lower than ownership among white people in the US, so that doesn't provide a very good buffer to protect those black and brown neighborhoods from being "flipped" into white neighborhoods).

In short: Integration is a good goal. But, without some care, moving white folks into black and brown neighborhoods can be harmful.

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a vicious cycle: good schools -> increase demand -> high home prices -> affluent residents -> more tax revenue -> better schools -> repeat The reverse happens with bad schools.

Is school funding distributed in such a small district that tax revenue in the district itself affects the school budget?

That is often the case in the US, yes.

A recent court ruling in Connecticut may change that, at least in that state. Some links:

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/08/nyr...

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/12/nyr...

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/16/nyregion/connecticut-ed...

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#58
post #46

Did the article answer the question of why black and white Americans don't live together? I didn't seem to see any theories besides saying that real estate agents wouldn't show one black couple houses in the white neighborhoods. How does black American integration compare with Chinese American integration, and what can we learn from that? Is there a bigger, subconscious (possibly genetic) reason why black and whites…

(Half-Chinese here, with an immigrant parent on the Chinese side.)

Interestingly, Asian-American integration seems to happen only within higher socioeconomic classes. Asian-Americans as a group seem bifurcated into South or East Asians who immigrated into highly-technical, well-paying jobs after 1965 (when U.S. immigration policy opened up to let them in), and East Asians who came over for things like the California railroads in the late 1800s or Southeast Asians who arrived as refugees in the 70s and 80s. The latter group is much more likely to live in Chinatown, work in restaurants or laundromats rather than software companies, have few friends of other races (indeed, inner-city Asian-Americans I knew in college seemed more likely to hang out with the black kids than the white ones), and speak relatively poor English.

This makes me think the root cause is economic. It could have to do with these groups not being able to afford houses in nicer areas, or it could be people not wanting to associate with people who they view as a rung down on the socioeconomic ladder.

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#59
post #16
post #11

It seems like there's a business opportunity for someone who wants to set up a lending company that offers black families fair and favorable terms on mortgages.

Why would there be a business opportunity here? Banks can already do this but they don't. Maybe it is more risky so they charge higher rates.

It's something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Denying minorities equal access to lending limits demand for houses in minority-dominated areas, which in turn limits the return on housing in such areas. Similarly, when white people start fleeing a neighborhood because of increased minority (especially black) residents moving in, that drives down house prices, driving further white residents out. The resulting price spiral guts what once made the neighborhood desireable.

Thus, it is actually rational for a white home owner to sell immediately after minority residents move into their neighborhood, even if they aren't motivated by any racial animus. It is correspondingly rational for bankers to price loans to minorities at higher rates because of the increased risk they represent. So to a certain extent, bankers don't loan to minorities because bankers don't loan to minorities.

Someone, somewhere needs to break the negative feedback loop.

That was the intention of the Fair Housing Act, but it hasn't been enough. Partially because of inadequate enforcement and partially because home ownership is only one tiny aspect of the vast and complicated beast that is race in America. Even if black Americans had perfectly equal access to lending and housing, the racial income gap would still exclude them from many of the least integrated areas, which also happen to be where the best schools and opportunities for improving income are.

It's shitty and I don't pretend to have any inkling of how to address these problems. But I don't think you can justify bankers or white flighters or blockbusters or whomever by saying they are responding rationally to real risks and incentives. That just means the risks and incentives need to be changed, because the social consequences have been awful for Americans in general and minorities in particular.

Re: Why don't black and white Americans live together?

#60
post #32

All you need for self-segregation to occur is that individuals don't want to be a small minority in their local area. As people exercise that preference by moving around, they will create enclaves where certain groups dominate. http://nifty.stanford.edu/2014/mccown-schelling-model-segreg... http://www.citylab.com/design/2014/12/an-immersive-game-show...

> All you need for self-segregation to occur is that individuals don't want to be a small minority in their local area. If that was the case (or enough), we wouldn't have this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_steering and this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_segregation_in_the_Uni... I don't think many blacks care of being a "small minority" on a posh white neighborhood...

I don't think many blacks care of being a "small minority" on a posh white neighborhood...

You're implying that they don't have the choice of an equally posh black neighborhood, in which case such a slight preference against being a minority wouldn't be surprising at all.

Post reply on HN