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Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

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Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#221

Post by seba_dos1 »

Whitestrake wrote: post #216
seba_dos1 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Removed the option from BIOS menu? Okay, stupid and annoying, but well, there's always EFI shell where you can edit variables by yourself... Writing a piece of code that resets that one particular variable on each boot? Sorry, but that's just nasty. There is no reason to do that if the goal is just to provide best experience on supported OS. Although I agree that it's unlikely this was targetted specifically against…

> There is no reason to do that if the goal is just to provide best experience on supported OS. I don't believe it's accurate to say there's "no real reason", it seems like enforcing this behaviour is very much aligned with the goal you've posited. This is under the assumption that this was indeed done for the purpose of ensuring Intel specific drivers are used for power management purposes.

There is no real reason to write code that goes out of its way to prevent you from switching into AHCI mode even if you know what you're doing (like in EFI shell).

Hiding the option from BIOS menu is absolutely enough to "ensure Intel specific drivers are used for power management purposes". It would be annoying, but workaroundable. There is no real reason for anything more, aside of being able to get months of complains about not releasing a one line fix allowing your customers to use your hardware.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#222

Post by NetStrikeForce »

ramblenode wrote: post #217
NetStrikeForce wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dear god, am I supposed to care about the shareholders now? People don't buy products out of empathy for shareholders. No. People buy Lenovo because many reasons, but not because of empathy... or because their friendliness to Linux. And, by the way, you still don't get it. You're not the one to decide on behalf of Lenovo what's reasonable for them to do, unless you're their CEO. You can say this or that is reasonab…

> People buy Lenovo because many reasons, but not because of empathy... or because their friendliness to Linux. Lenovo's Linux compatibility has been a selling point for Linux users from what I've gathered talking to people and reading forums (see for example [0]). It was one of the reasons I bought a Lenovo. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11503951

Yes, I know. The T series are pretty good, however those are marginal sales.

In my opinion, if those sales were important, Lenovo wouldn't be screwing over non-Windows users like they did now.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#223

Post by NetStrikeForce »

dang wrote: post #214
NetStrikeForce wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not getting trolled. No one is against you, you just don't understand business and the associated costs of things that might look little to you. On the technical side you're right, we agree. On the business side things do not work like that. For the last time: This was a terrible decision, but the best course of action for Lenovo might not be as simple as it looks for a technical standpoint. And please, keep i…

> And please, keep it civil. There's no need to call me troll just because you don't understand business. I agree that that wasn't civil, but there's nothing civil about this side-swipe either. Please don't do that.

You are 100% right, my apologies to Hydraulix989, HN users that had to read that and yourself.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#224

Post by rlpb »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #221
Whitestrake wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no reason to do that if the goal is just to provide best experience on supported OS. I don't believe it's accurate to say there's "no real reason", it seems like enforcing this behaviour is very much aligned with the goal you've posited. This is under the assumption that this was indeed done for the purpose of ensuring Intel specific drivers are used for power management purposes.

There is no real reason to write code that goes out of its way to prevent you from switching into AHCI mode even if you know what you're doing (like in EFI shell). Hiding the option from BIOS menu is absolutely enough to "ensure Intel specific drivers are used for power management purposes". It would be annoying, but workaroundable. There is no real reason for anything more, aside of being able to get months of compl…

> Hiding the option from BIOS menu is absolutely enough to "ensure Intel specific drivers are used for power management purposes".

It absolutely is not enough, because I can come up with a single contrary case.

If this change was made in a BIOS update, simply hiding the option would leave some users stuck in the "wrong" setting forever. So one might write some code to flip it back at the same time.

This is the simplest way of fixing the problem. It doesn't need any assumption of maliciousness or incompetence. It's just unfortunate for Linux users, since they clearly didn't get any consideration when this fix was written, that's all.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#225

Post by Esau »

mjg59 wrote: post #112
captainmuon wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just nitpicking. They blocked the enabling of a setting which allows Linux to see the hard disk. They went out of their way to make a firmware change that has the effect that you cannot run Linux - unless you flash your BIOS or you write a driver. In my book, they effectively blocked the installation of Linux. Now, there are two options. 1) to support this hardware correctly, you'd need to make complex changes…

> They blocked the enabling of a setting which allows Linux to see the hard disk. Or, alternatively, they removed a firmware setting that makes their hardware work less well and didn't think about Linux at all.

I suspect this is the real answer. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out that they only tested Windows internally.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#226

Post by aruggirello »

I repost here the 39th comment, which gives a possible explanation of the issue:

  Storm in a teacup
  Date: 2016-09-22 09:17 am (UTC)
  From: [personal profile] cowbutt
"Intel have not submitted any patches to Linux to support the "RAID" mode."

Such patches are unnecessary, as mdadm already supports Intel Rapid Storage Technology (RST - http://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/architecture-and-te... ) for simple RAID (e.g. levels 0, 1, 10) arrays, allowing them to be assembled as md or dmraid devices under Linux.

However, it would appear that the version of mdadm in shipping versions of Ubuntu (at least - maybe other distros too) doesn't support the Smart Response Technology (SRT - http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-tech... ) feature that's a part of RST and is used by Lenovo to build a hybrid one-stripe RAID0 device from the HDD with a cache on the SSD (I'm sure Lenovo have a good reason for not using a SSHD). Dan Williams of Intel submitted a series of patches to mdadm to support SRT back in April 2014: https://marc.info/?l=linux-raid&r=1&b=201404&w=2 . Perhaps now there's shipping hardware that requires them, there'll be the impetus for distro vendors to get them integrated into mdadm, and their auto-detection in their installers to use the functionality provided sanely.

---

I should add that mdadm is not present in Ubuntu live images by default - one has to pull it in by issuing "sudo apt[-get] install mdadm". BTW, I don't know if mdadm would detect the RAID controller/disk immediately upon installation, or it would require a reboot. In the latter case you may wish to use a USB key with enough spare room to save the system status and reboot. I'd use UNetBootin to prepare such a USB key.

The main issue here is, a user who doesn't even see a disk, probably wouldn't know to go as far as installing mdadm. IMHO, given the broadening diffusion of NVMe and RAID devices, Debian, Canonical, REDHAT, Fedora etc. might wish to make mdadm part of their live images by default (and eventually strip it from the installed system if it's unnecessary).

Edit: clarified

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#228

Post by vetinari »

tw04 wrote: post #201
PieterH wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I'm happy to install Linux from a USB stick. I'm not happy reflashing a BIOS. Have installed many, many laptops with Linux (ironically, my all time favorites are older Lenovos like the X220). I've not once flashed a BIOS. Not being able to change the OS on a laptop severely reduces its aftermarket value too. My laptop originally ran Windows. I bought it second hand to run Linux on.

Flashing a BIOS takes about 1/10th the time and effort of installing Linux. Unless you're under the age of about 25 I'm not sure how you've never once flashed a BIOS unless you aren't in tech. Pretty much every new server from Dell/HP/Cisco/IBM/name your vendor requires a BIOS flash at least once in it's lifetime. Usually at the time of acquisition for HBA compatibility.

Flashing Lenovo BIOS can be dangerous.

I once bricked an X230 with BIOS flashing (through Thinkpad Update). Judging from the forums, I'm not alone.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#229

Post by vetinari »

raesene9 wrote: post #68
guelo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users don't have any other channel to ask Lenovo besides the forums and (apparently more effectively) leaving poor reviews on Best Buy and Amazon.

yep that's not an unreasonable point, but do you not think that a more reasonable position would have been to ask Lenovo/MS and wait some time for a response before assuming that it was a conspiracy on MS' part?

Is several months long enough?

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#230

Post by pieter_mj »

parenthephobia wrote: post #91
raesene9 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abosutely people are totally free not to buy their stuff. But that does not make it a conspiracy by MS or Lenovo. it is a commercial decision. companies get to make those consumers then get to choose whether to buy their stuff but it's not a conspiracy.

What conceivable commercial purpose of Lenovo is served by making it difficult for people to install operating systems other than Windows 10 on their laptops?

I would surmise the signature edition contract with Microsoft probably requires Lenovo to have their laptops at optimal performance. Suboptimal performance must not occur, hence the blocking of other non-RAID options.

It would be interesting to see how this is achieved in other pc's in the signature edition range : https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/categor...

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