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New Record Low Solar Price in Abu Dhabi – Costs Plunging Faster Than Expected

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Re: New Record Low Solar Price in Abu Dhabi – Costs Plunging Faster Than Expected

#31

Post by qoobaa »

raverbashing wrote: post #30
pavanred wrote: post #25

May be a noob question, but if we can lay down cables for internet across the ocean floor connecting the entire world, why not lay down cables to connect all electricity grids. Half the earth always faces the sun. We shouldn't need batteries at all then, right? And we always have the traditional power stations (renewable and non-renewable) to augment the load. (At least in theory?)

Because power losses will be absurd (unless you manage to find a room-temperature superconductor) Pretty simple math, if you cable has 1 Ohm/km then the distance between the Northeastern most point in Canada to Ireland is around 3000 km (or 3x10E6m) So suppose you have this very long extension cord, plug it on Canada (100V there to help the math) and plug a lamp on Ireland (an old incandescent 100W bulb, because it d…

Let me quote Ramez Naam here:

Transmission costs money, but less than many believe. The cost of high voltage DC (HVDC) transmission lines is roughly 1 cents per kwh for 500 miles, or 1.5 cents per kwh for 1,000 miles transmitted. Over 1,000 miles, an HVDC line may lose 5% or so of the electricity it transmits.

I don't consider 5% per 1000 miles an "absurd" amount.

Re: New Record Low Solar Price in Abu Dhabi – Costs Plunging Faster Than Expected

#32

Post by XorNot »

raverbashing wrote: post #30
pavanred wrote: post #25

May be a noob question, but if we can lay down cables for internet across the ocean floor connecting the entire world, why not lay down cables to connect all electricity grids. Half the earth always faces the sun. We shouldn't need batteries at all then, right? And we always have the traditional power stations (renewable and non-renewable) to augment the load. (At least in theory?)

Because power losses will be absurd (unless you manage to find a room-temperature superconductor) Pretty simple math, if you cable has 1 Ohm/km then the distance between the Northeastern most point in Canada to Ireland is around 3000 km (or 3x10E6m) So suppose you have this very long extension cord, plug it on Canada (100V there to help the math) and plug a lamp on Ireland (an old incandescent 100W bulb, because it d…

You don't need a room temperature superconductor. High temperature superconductors can be economically refrigerated today. The problem overland is encapsulation - under the sea this goes away since the environment is much more stable (and colder).

Re: New Record Low Solar Price in Abu Dhabi – Costs Plunging Faster Than Expected

#33

Post by XorNot »

ekianjo wrote: post #20
blazespin wrote: post #2

This will create massive pressure on the price of oil. Why would anyone in their right mind not try to sell it off as fast as possible as it won't be worth much in a few years.

You can easily store oil. Electricity, not so much. And oil is a necessary element for numerous chemical compounds, you cant really compare both.

Industrial use of oil for chemicals doesn't burn it and is tiny compared to transportation. Also highly substitutable with plant sources.

Re: New Record Low Solar Price in Abu Dhabi – Costs Plunging Faster Than Expected

#34

Post by nickff »

qoobaa wrote: post #28
pavanred wrote: post #25

May be a noob question, but if we can lay down cables for internet across the ocean floor connecting the entire world, why not lay down cables to connect all electricity grids. Half the earth always faces the sun. We shouldn't need batteries at all then, right? And we always have the traditional power stations (renewable and non-renewable) to augment the load. (At least in theory?)

It's a very good question. I always thought that it's because of technical difficulties when transmitting electricity over long distances, but it turns out we already do it well (HVDC). When you think about it on a continent scale: why not move all PV panels from Germany to sunnier regions of Europe like Spain or Portugal where you can generate twice more power with them (in average 200 W/m² instead of 100 W/m²). The…

The amount of copper you would need to constantly convey electricity from the sunny side of the earth to the dark side would be absolutely massive. It is not an issue of common grids, as long distance high power transmission is done at many different voltages depending on the specific route, and has nothing to do with your mains voltage and frequency.

Current long distance power transmission is most often used as a way of 'balancing' production and demand between different types of plants; it is not intended or capable of transmitting the full power needs of the recieving area.

Re: New Record Low Solar Price in Abu Dhabi – Costs Plunging Faster Than Expected

#35

Post by ivan_gammel »

mrpopo wrote: post #29
pavanred wrote: post #25

May be a noob question, but if we can lay down cables for internet across the ocean floor connecting the entire world, why not lay down cables to connect all electricity grids. Half the earth always faces the sun. We shouldn't need batteries at all then, right? And we always have the traditional power stations (renewable and non-renewable) to augment the load. (At least in theory?)

Power transmission on large distances is a very difficult subject. To put it simply, wires have a non-zero resistance to current, increasing with its length. For instance, Morocco plans to put solar panels in the Sahara. The solution that is considered in order to transmit power was that the solar station would charge batteries and the batteries would be carried by trucks.

Chemical energy storage looks interesting and it's not limited to batteries. Can be fuel as well. And it can be transferred via automated rail line (or even wire transport).

Re: New Record Low Solar Price in Abu Dhabi – Costs Plunging Faster Than Expected

#36

Post by Annatar »

jerven wrote: post #6
Annatar wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because right now, batteries last only about one year and need to be replaced after that (I have lots of bad experience there), and because right now, my calculations show that for a 35,000 investement, the panels have to last 13 years before one breaks even, unless one lives in a sunny area. The problem is that the current solar technology isn't very good yet: the panels constantly lose capacity as they generate ele…

Not on an industrial scale. Currently, solar and battery is roughly similar too diesel generated electricity in cost (i.e. very expensive) but for load displacement solar is very hard to beat. In this case the Abu Dhabi grid is basically running on gas plants that would be peakers in other markets. i.e. Abu Dhabi could consume much more solar especially as a large demand for power is for cooling (storing cold water,…

Comparing stirling engines to panels -> Panels are so much simpler they will perform better for any domestic and even industrial use. Maintenance is a driving cost in getting these prices down, mechanicals tend to have much higher maintenance requirements.

What exactly needs maintenance in a Stirling engine? Please be concrete.

Re: New Record Low Solar Price in Abu Dhabi – Costs Plunging Faster Than Expected

#37

Post by jerven »

Annatar wrote: post #36
jerven wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not on an industrial scale. Currently, solar and battery is roughly similar too diesel generated electricity in cost (i.e. very expensive) but for load displacement solar is very hard to beat. In this case the Abu Dhabi grid is basically running on gas plants that would be peakers in other markets. i.e. Abu Dhabi could consume much more solar especially as a large demand for power is for cooling (storing cold water,…

Comparing stirling engines to panels -> Panels are so much simpler they will perform better for any domestic and even industrial use. Maintenance is a driving cost in getting these prices down, mechanicals tend to have much higher maintenance requirements. What exactly needs maintenance in a Stirling engine? Please be concrete.

Any of the moving parts e.g. mechanical to electrical converter, the 2 axis point solar tracker.

Re: New Record Low Solar Price in Abu Dhabi – Costs Plunging Faster Than Expected

#38

Post by raverbashing »

qoobaa wrote: post #31
raverbashing wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because power losses will be absurd (unless you manage to find a room-temperature superconductor) Pretty simple math, if you cable has 1 Ohm/km then the distance between the Northeastern most point in Canada to Ireland is around 3000 km (or 3x10E6m) So suppose you have this very long extension cord, plug it on Canada (100V there to help the math) and plug a lamp on Ireland (an old incandescent 100W bulb, because it d…

Let me quote Ramez Naam here: Transmission costs money, but less than many believe. The cost of high voltage DC (HVDC) transmission lines is roughly 1 cents per kwh for 500 miles, or 1.5 cents per kwh for 1,000 miles transmitted. Over 1,000 miles, an HVDC line may lose 5% or so of the electricity it transmits. I don't consider 5% per 1000 miles an "absurd" amount.

Yes, losses are lower with a higher voltage (which for HVDC are around 100kV/1MV - in orders of magnitude)

However doing it on terrain is much easier than doing it under the ocean

Re: New Record Low Solar Price in Abu Dhabi – Costs Plunging Faster Than Expected

#39

Post by visarga »

Annatar wrote: post #3

This whole machination thing will collapse as soon as the solar panel prices, along with the inverter and battery costs drop low enough to be part of every house. Once everyone generates and stores their own electricity, the residential market will go away. This might be another 20 to 30 years off, but it is inevitable. And once factories start building Stirling engines and solar facilities into their designs, the in…

> Once everyone generates and stores their own electricity, the residential market will go away

I think solar panels will be organized in farms and electricity will be delivered by wire, mostly, even for the residential market.

Re: New Record Low Solar Price in Abu Dhabi – Costs Plunging Faster Than Expected

#40

Post by visarga »

CptJamesCook wrote: post #10
blazespin wrote: post #2

This will create massive pressure on the price of oil. Why would anyone in their right mind not try to sell it off as fast as possible as it won't be worth much in a few years.

Solar doesn't really compete with oil. It competes with coal, natural gas, and nuclear power to power homes.

Why can't solar be used to capture CO2 and produce fuel?
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