Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

mjg59.dreamwidth.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 257 posts

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#141

Post by raesene9 »

__jal wrote: post #138
raesene9 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

customer support person made stuff up 'cause he wanted to seem to know the answer, so he could close the call and get on with his job? Or Lenovo and MS have a vast conspiracy to use disk drivers to block linux install.. which is more likely.... you decide.

> Or Lenovo and MS have a vast conspiracy to use disk drivers to block linux install.. That's not a vast conspiracy. That would be a pretty quotidian conspiracy. In fact, it would look a lot like the "Winmodems[1]" that were a thing before (and maybe around?) the turn of the century. Those existed because they made machines marginally cheaper by emulating the modem in software. Which only worked on Windows and caused…

Sure I remember the old winmodem days well, but that was a well known (and very frustrating) problem, which was a stated position of the companies in question.

the customer support bit and wanting to move to the next call is based on my own experience of working in support many years ago, there was a strong temptation to tell the user something to get onto the next call as that was usually your performance metric....

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#142

Post by farcical_tinpot »

farcical_tinpot wrote: post #140
farcical_tinpot wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't looked but I also very much doubt there is a Windows 7 driver for this.......... ;-).

....and indeed, there are only Windows 10 drivers. http://support.lenovo.com/gb/en/products/Laptops-and-netbook... WTF is that URL by the way? Many Skylake systems are like this today. You can boot Windows 7 but there are no USB 2.0 ports so you have no keyboard or mouse. You have to go through an incredibly tedious procedure of slipstreaming USB 3 drivers into the installation, and you don't always know whether you…

That should be you might be able to get an OS they're not keen on booted, of course.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#143

Post by gautamdivgi »

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #118
Hydraulix989 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, then make the default setting RAID in the BIOS, don't proactively prevent (or should I say, restrict) that setting from being changed at all.

Why? Why should Lenovo let 99% of their users use sub-par drivers when they reinstall Windows?

I think the RAID setting can be the default. But they should provide the option to change if users want to install linux. Most linux users are BIOS friendly anyway.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#145

Post by farcical_tinpot »

Sanddancer wrote: post #94
rbanffy wrote: post #46

Wasn't Lenovo the company that shipped unremovable malware with laptops? Considering the almost impossible to disable Intel management stuff is also there, I can only imagine the kind of parasite living on these machines. Why would anyone buy their stuff?

One of the parts of the MS Signature Series agreement is that there is no crapware, that what you get is pretty much the same if you installed a direct from microsoft copy of Windows. The signature series is probably the only line I would get from lenovo, because it's guaranteed not to need hours of futzing to get it working decently.

So get a vanilla install disk from Microsoft's site, install and reuse the license.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#146

Post by Hydraulix989 »

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #118
Hydraulix989 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, then make the default setting RAID in the BIOS, don't proactively prevent (or should I say, restrict) that setting from being changed at all.

Why? Why should Lenovo let 99% of their users use sub-par drivers when they reinstall Windows?

Where did I say that Lenovo should change the default setting?

To be clear, I'm perfectly fine with a default setting of RAID -- but right now, they also lock you out of changing it back to AHCI.

What I think is reasonable is allowing users to change the setting back to AHCI (at their own risk, of course, as is the case with MOST settings in the BIOS). They should have done that all along, but instead, they artificially restricted it, locking us Linux users out by their own volition.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#147

Post by Hydraulix989 »

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #119
Hydraulix989 wrote: post #37

Their spin that it is "our super advanced Intel RAID chipset" really plays in their favor, given that their BIOS uses a single goto statement to intentionally block access to the ability to set this chipset into the AHCI compatible mode that the hardware so readily supports, as evidenced by the REing work and the fact that other OSes detect the drive after the AHCI fix using the custom-flashed BIOS. So, why are they…

This is not a good PR move for Lenovo and the whole meltdown has been terribly handled as we can clearly see. However shipping a new BIOS that opens the option to run with less than optimal drivers for the majority of their users (Windows users) it is not a good idea. There are costs to ship a BIOS with and without the "band-aid" and to support it. There are also costs for all the support calls they think they'll get…

Just because something was shittier in the past, doesn't excuse the present for still being shitty.

Where did I say that Lenovo should change the default setting?

To be clear, I'm perfectly fine with a default setting of RAID -- but right now, they also lock you out of changing it back to AHCI.

What I think is reasonable is allowing users to change the setting back to AHCI (at their own risk, of course, as is the case with MOST settings in the BIOS). They should have done that all along, but instead, they artificially restricted it, locking us Linux users out by their own volition.

Maybe they could even have two separate builds (using an #ifdef on their end), where Linux users can download the "unlocked version" much like some permissive phone manufacturers have done with rooting (to draw a somewhat weak analogy).

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#148

Post by throw2016 »

Some commentators seem to be more keen on labelling others conspiracy theorists than consider the possibility that MS and Lenovo could be up to no good.

The only way to convince these folks it seems would be a smoking gun or even better a signed confession from satya and lenovo admitting to shady behavior.

Since that's not how shady behavior works in the real world presumably many here are supporters of the camel in the sand approach with a zero tolerance policy towards non conforming camels.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#149

Post by NetStrikeForce »

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #147
NetStrikeForce wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a good PR move for Lenovo and the whole meltdown has been terribly handled as we can clearly see. However shipping a new BIOS that opens the option to run with less than optimal drivers for the majority of their users (Windows users) it is not a good idea. There are costs to ship a BIOS with and without the "band-aid" and to support it. There are also costs for all the support calls they think they'll get…

Just because something was shittier in the past, doesn't excuse the present for still being shitty. Where did I say that Lenovo should change the default setting? To be clear, I'm perfectly fine with a default setting of RAID -- but right now, they also lock you out of changing it back to AHCI. What I think is reasonable is allowing users to change the setting back to AHCI (at their own risk, of course, as is the cas…

> Just because something was shittier in the past, doesn't excuse the present for still being shitty.

You are right. No one's making excuses here :)

> Where did I say that Lenovo should change the default setting?

You didn't, I did.

I was walking on Lenovo's shoes and asking myself "What's good for the business right now?". I was considering my options, so to speak.

> What I think is reasonable is allowing users to change the setting back to AHCI (at their own risk, of course, as is the case with MOST settings in the BIOS). They should have done that all along, but instead, they artificially restricted it, locking us Linux users out by their own volition.

Why is it reasonable? Does it bring more money to Lenovo shareholders? What happens when all the Internet forums are full of people blindly recommending to change to AHCI so you can use your Windows 10 vanilla ISO to reinstall? I tell you what happens: You end up with hundreds of support cases and laptops returned because they [underperfom|get too hot|have shitty battery] and non-returning customers.

With the decision Lenovo made, they will have way less problems. Or so they thought! Maybe they were right, maybe they were wrong.

> Maybe they could even have two separate builds (using an #ifdef on their end), where Linux users can download the "unlocked version" much like some permissive phone manufacturers have done with rooting (to draw a somewhat weak analogy).

They could do that, but as I said in my previous comment this might not be as cheap as it sounds.

If they were to provide the unlocked BIOS version "at your own risk", would you use it? And if it bricks your laptop, would you or someone else sue Lenovo?

Those are the things at play here.

(Note: I agree with you on most things here, just playing Devil's advocate)

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#150

Post by wpietri »

raesene9 wrote: post #60
captainmuon wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just nitpicking. They blocked the enabling of a setting which allows Linux to see the hard disk. They went out of their way to make a firmware change that has the effect that you cannot run Linux - unless you flash your BIOS or you write a driver. In my book, they effectively blocked the installation of Linux. Now, there are two options. 1) to support this hardware correctly, you'd need to make complex changes…

Should Lenovo provide a driver. Let's be honest, that's a commercial decision and entirely up to them if they want to support Linux installs on this hardware. Why should a commercial company be forced to provide support for a platform? If they advertise the hardware as supporting Linux then sure they absolutely should be required to support it. If they don't, then why should they have to support it?

> Why should a commercial company be forced to provide support for a platform?

I must have missed the post where somebody advocated having troops parachute into Lenovo's head office and round executives up at gunpoint. Could you let me know who was advocating the use of force?

Post reply on HN