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Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

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Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#131

Post by raesene9 »

vacri wrote: post #120
raesene9 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's easy, they don't spend money on developing drivers for Linux. Every OS they support costs money in developer time. It's a commercial trade-off what Operating Systems to support. Put it this way, do you see lenovo or Dell or HP developing drivers for OpenBSD? there's no commercial ROI on that, so they don't In this case it would appear that Lenovo don't think there's a commercial reason to help out with Linux d…

I'm a bit puzzled as to how a low-karma user with no submissions is able to post so many comments, when there's supposed to be a timed comment limit to prevent exactly this sort of repetitive go-nowhere discussion.

timed comments seem to increase with thread depth. Apologies if you think things are circular, I've just been responding where people replied to me with points that I felt warranted a response, which seemed like a reasonable thing to do in a discussion thread.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#132

Post by farcical_tinpot »

raesene9 wrote: post #36
__jal wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, when a Lenovo rep says: "This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft," it doesn't exactly require a bomb-throwing partisan to reach the conclusion.

But the idea that a random customer service rep. would have information about something that was not a public position of either Lenovo or Microsoft, to me, seemed unlikely.

Why wouldn't they? You find out all sorts of things when you work for a company, strangely enough.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#133

Post by savagej »

sndean wrote: post #82
savagej wrote: post #65

Why would anyone ever buy Lenovo? It's malware, spyware, and harmful to users. I buy HP or Samsung laptops to run Fedora. Just accept that Lenovo is not IBM hardware, and that it is lost to us.

> I buy HP or Samsung laptops to run Fedora. Recently, which models? (I was thinking of getting a new Thinkpad... but maybe I should look at HP or Samsung)

Currently, I run on a pair of Samsung Ativ Book 9 Plus with 8G mem. It looks like they've moved on from the Ativ line. The 3200 x 1800 display works well with awesome+gnome. It also drives an external 1440p display simultaneously (at 30fps).

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#134

Post by farcical_tinpot »

raesene9 wrote: post #84
captainmuon wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if Lenovo and MS have an agreement what to preinstall on those Laptops - which is very common. Furthermore, Lenovo agreed not to offer ways to install specific other software - no bundled Antivirus CD, no downloadable Lenovo Picks app - and maybe or maybe not - don't prepare customer support to answer "how to install Linux". The customer rep gets a cryptic sticker on his desk: "Models 1234S, 3333S: Signature Win…

customer support person made stuff up 'cause he wanted to seem to know the answer, so he could close the call and get on with his job? Or Lenovo and MS have a vast conspiracy to use disk drivers to block linux install.. which is more likely.... you decide.

They are using disk drivers to restrict what gets installed - not just Linux both other Windows - Windows 7 or future versions of Windows which they want to build hardware obsolescence into and force you into throwing good hardware away.

That's very likely.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#135

Post by farcical_tinpot »

farcical_tinpot wrote: post #129

I wondered when Matthew Garrett would pipe up and deepthroat Microsoft again. He duly obliges. When I first heard this I thought this was what I always thought would eventually happen with Secure Boot, but we haven't quite arrived at that point yet. Give it time when we eventually end up with critical mass. What seems to be happening is similar to Kaby Lake in reverse. You restrict hardware and drivers needed to no o…

I haven't looked but I also very much doubt there is a Windows 7 driver for this.......... ;-).

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#136

Post by raesene9 »

farcical_tinpot wrote: post #132
raesene9 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the idea that a random customer service rep. would have information about something that was not a public position of either Lenovo or Microsoft, to me, seemed unlikely.

Why wouldn't they? You find out all sorts of things when you work for a company, strangely enough.

what and then blow your companies secret position on a response to a user query, knowing that if found it would very likely endanger your continued employment with that company....

You honestly think that's more likely than, someone made a mistake or said something to close a support call???

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#138

Post by __jal »

raesene9 wrote: post #84
captainmuon wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if Lenovo and MS have an agreement what to preinstall on those Laptops - which is very common. Furthermore, Lenovo agreed not to offer ways to install specific other software - no bundled Antivirus CD, no downloadable Lenovo Picks app - and maybe or maybe not - don't prepare customer support to answer "how to install Linux". The customer rep gets a cryptic sticker on his desk: "Models 1234S, 3333S: Signature Win…

customer support person made stuff up 'cause he wanted to seem to know the answer, so he could close the call and get on with his job? Or Lenovo and MS have a vast conspiracy to use disk drivers to block linux install.. which is more likely.... you decide.

> Or Lenovo and MS have a vast conspiracy to use disk drivers to block linux install..

That's not a vast conspiracy. That would be a pretty quotidian conspiracy. In fact, it would look a lot like the "Winmodems[1]" that were a thing before (and maybe around?) the turn of the century.

Those existed because they made machines marginally cheaper by emulating the modem in software. Which only worked on Windows and caused much gnashing of teeth back when.

I believe Winmodems came to be solely because of cost savings. I also believe that the fact that it was functional exclusively on Win was a second-order effect that approximately nobody in Redmond took issue with.

...As an aside, I'm going to assume consistency on the part of all those who are being snide about customer support folks, and assume you make a point of never calling customer support (I'm not referring to the parent poster here). After all, you can't trust anything those idiots say, so why would you bother?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softmodem

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#139

Post by pbhjpbhj »

mjg59 wrote: post #112
captainmuon wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just nitpicking. They blocked the enabling of a setting which allows Linux to see the hard disk. They went out of their way to make a firmware change that has the effect that you cannot run Linux - unless you flash your BIOS or you write a driver. In my book, they effectively blocked the installation of Linux. Now, there are two options. 1) to support this hardware correctly, you'd need to make complex changes…

> They blocked the enabling of a setting which allows Linux to see the hard disk. Or, alternatively, they removed a firmware setting that makes their hardware work less well and didn't think about Linux at all.

Well really you need to say "didn't think users would install any operating system ever" to fit with the information here. Pre-installed Win10 being the only option doesn't seem to fit with the idea that Lenovo would want to sell more PCs.

I guess switching modes, a la progressive enhancement, is impossible with disk access then??

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#140

Post by farcical_tinpot »

farcical_tinpot wrote: post #135
farcical_tinpot wrote: post #129

I wondered when Matthew Garrett would pipe up and deepthroat Microsoft again. He duly obliges. When I first heard this I thought this was what I always thought would eventually happen with Secure Boot, but we haven't quite arrived at that point yet. Give it time when we eventually end up with critical mass. What seems to be happening is similar to Kaby Lake in reverse. You restrict hardware and drivers needed to no o…

I haven't looked but I also very much doubt there is a Windows 7 driver for this.......... ;-).

....and indeed, there are only Windows 10 drivers.

http://support.lenovo.com/gb/en/products/Laptops-and-netbook...

WTF is that URL by the way?

Many Skylake systems are like this today. You can boot Windows 7 but there are no USB 2.0 ports so you have no keyboard or mouse. You have to go through an incredibly tedious procedure of slipstreaming USB 3 drivers into the installation, and you don't always know whether you have the right ones from Intel's site.

Restricting disk access seems like a much more foolproof way of closing this off ;-). Businesses can't buy this laptop and use their volume license of Windows 7, which is entirely the point. They can also build in obsolescence in the future by removing driver support.

You might be able to get an OS they're not keen on installed, but if you can't see the disk you've got no chance of getting it installed ;-).

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