Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#121

Post by npiazza83 » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 9:16 PM UTC

raesene9 wrote: post #114

npiazza83 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not be a conspiracy but it is certainly newsworthy. I've got a son who is getting to be about the age where a young man is ready for his spirit journey and will be sent to his room with an old laptop, his father's slackware disks, and a static IP and he will not be let out until www.youreamannow.com reads, "please bring me snacks." I would hate to send him unprepared into the wild with a Lenovo.

Slackware, you're being kind there, surely http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ is the only way to experience your first linux install (although it's still a bit easy seeing as how people can use flash drives rather than Floppy disks for the install)

I admit I spoil the boy... Perhaps he is ready...

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#122

Post by youdontknowtho » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 9:17 PM UTC

pdkl95 wrote: post #51

There has been a disturbing level of contempt for the people that were concerned about the future of Free Software. There has been a major shift towards more locked down platforms for years ever since iOS was accepted by the developer community. With Microsoft locking down Secure Boot on ARM and requiring it for Windows 10, it is prudent to be extra vigilant about anything strange that happens in the boot process. Th…

Wow. Man, come on.

The disturbing level of contempt is almost the sole property of the "Linux == Freedom" crowd. I mean seriously, the level of outrage about systemd alone is off the rails. Bring up Microsoft and I'm somehow complicit in oppressing people because I use their software? (But somehow the rare earth minerals in devices and the contributions to modern electronics of the defense budget don't somehow make us all culpable of far more. I mean, yeah the GPS in my phone was built for the military but how dare you not give me a compiler!)

I used to be such a hard core Linux fan when I was younger. Man I hope I wasn't as breathlessly shrill as the people I'm seeing today. There is so much wrong with the world that people complaining about this really make me think that we are all so isolated in our little worlds...

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#123

Post by colemickens » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 9:19 PM UTC

Oh it's funny to see the comments in this thread talking down about people on reddit when the misplaced outrage was just as loud here. In fact, I got buried here for pointing out that the claim was BS and unrelated to SecureBoot where at least Reddit took it thoughtfully and realized it was probably just a bullshit statement from a nobody rep that got blown out of proportion.

Sorry to be that guy, but the elitism is pretty misplaced anymore...

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#124

Post by Hydraulix989 » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 9:20 PM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #113

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that's an inaccurate assumption. If you actually read the specifics about the situation, you'll learn that the SSD is set up in RAID mode, and the Intel hardware also supports AHCI mode. Acronis and all other OSes do not have driver-level support for this new experimental RAID hardware at all; they do support AHCI, of course, like they have for years. The BIOS normally has an option to revert the hardware back…

My understanding is that experimental support for the new RAID mode in Linux already exists. AFAIK, Acronis boots a Linux-based OS, and they were able to get it to support the Surface Pro 4 when it's using that mode, so presumably, they figured it out. As far as why Lenovo restricted it, it's likely for the same reason Lenovo was prohibited from preinstalling software. Signature PCs claim to have the "best" performan…

"My understanding is that experimental support for the new RAID mode in Linux already exists."

That is not true, many users have tried using the very latest bleeding edge kernel. The drive is not detected at all by Linux when it is in RAID mode. The usual fix is to disable RAID mode and just use AHCI. On most sane systems (but not Lenovo), you can do this easily by changing a single BIOS setting.

Also, my understanding is that the benchmarks show no appreciable performance benefits of single-drive SSD RAID over AHCI.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#125

Post by raesene9 » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 9:22 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #106

raesene9 wrote: post #4

Also worth noting Lenovo's official statment on the matter http://www.techrepublic.com/article/lenovo-denies-deliberate... confirming that they have not blocked the installation of alternate operating systems. It was a shame to see the initial posts this morning hit the top of the page without any more evidence than a single customer support rep. who was unlikely to realistically have inside knowledge of some kind of…

> without any more evidence than a single customer support rep This sounds like post facto justification on your part. It's entirely reasonable to take the word of a customer support representative . It's also an egregious misrepresentation to paint it as "secret conspiracy", given the phrasing the representative used.

It's not post facto justification at all I would suggest.

The wording of "secret conspiracy" was inspired by the original posts this morning on this exact subject which cast the matter as exactly that, and it was those posts to which that comment was referring.

The idea that a single customer support representative would know something which was previously unknown and unstated across the positions of two of the largest corp's around seemed unlikely.

What I've been trying to suggest to multiple posters here (and apologies if you think the arguments are circular but people seem to keep bringing the same points up repeatedly) is this.

which is more likely, a mistake from one low-level employee of Lenovo or a deliberate plan by two large corporates to secretly (the use of secret is justified by the fact that it's not their stated position) use the disk driver configuration of a laptop to block alternate OS installs.

really which do you think is more likely?

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#126

Post by Sanddancer » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 9:24 PM UTC

13of40 wrote: post #20

huhtenberg wrote: post #15

Yeah, sure, Microsoft is now all white and fluffy. Best friends forever. How about we pay some attention to the second part of: Lenovo's firmware defaults to "RAID" mode and ** doesn't allow you to change that ** Power savings or not, but locking down storage controller to a mode that just happens to be supported by exactly one OS has NO obvious rational explanation. Either Lenovo does that or Windows does. This has…

Why doesn't Linux support it? Is "RAID" mode based on some spec that was only provided to Microsoft and kept secret from everyone else?

MS doesn't write a lot of drivers for hardware. Even the stuff they provide on disk has a lot of drivers written by a third party. Intel's RAID mode is something that's not supported by default on Windows 10 even, which means you have to have the special RAID driver for even Windows to work on it. Intel has the driver info and isn't even releasing it to any OS makers as far as I can tell.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#127

Post by blihp » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 9:24 PM UTC

christogreeff wrote: post #43

huhtenberg wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No idea who are the dolts^H^H^H^H^H kind people who have downvoted you into light gray, but you are bloody right. Just look at their complete and utter disregard to everyone's privacy demonstrated by Windows 10. Remember all the shady shit Microsoft pulled to shovel W10 down everyone's throat, including "x", the cancel, being treated as "Yes, upgrade". How short and selective of a memory you should have to then claim…

Selective memory is disregarding all other areas where MS is actually encouring or trying to make their products work on Linux. The future of Microsoft is not Windows. I am also not disregarding the fact that I might be wrong, but as a Windows and Linux user, it seems strange to possibly alienate potential users with a Linux blocking move.

You're not seeing the big picture...

Microsoft is only supporting the use of Linux within their business model and nowhere else AFAICT. So they support things like running Linux on their cloud platform (they're getting paid... looks good) or as a client under their desktop platform (they're getting paid... still fine).

But when they get cut out of the loop, that's where their behavior is still suspect. For example: locked bootloaders where Microsoft effectively controls the keys to the kingdom via certs. Yes, you can disable this functionality (for now) on x86 but I don't believe that bypassing is possible on ARM short of exploiting bugs/leaked keys. Why is that? Because they can get away with it. No doubt they'd go the total lockdown route on x86 if they thought they could get away with it. Why can't they? Because the Linux crowd (a VERY vocal 1%) would blow a fuse and raise such hell that it might wake up the DoJ.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. It's not strange, it's a long and storied tradition... Microsoft has just gotten better at spin.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#128

Post by Grishnakh » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 9:25 PM UTC

plandis wrote: post #83

christogreeff wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was fascinating how quickly people condemned Microsoft without applying any critical thinking to the issue. I tend to not read commments on articles anymore, where Microsoft is blamed for something. Reminds me of Slahdot.

Microsofts track record for open solutions over the past 20 years naturally makes a lot of people distrustful. I'm actually surprised when I see people give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt despite years of building mistrust.

I'm not surprised at all, though I personally don't understand the mentality. I see it all the time: "Microsoft has changed their ways! Look, they've released Powershell for Linux!" etc., completely ignoring 30 years of history plus all the very recent user-hostile moves in Windows 10.

I guess a lot of people are just really naïve sheep. Also, notice how others saying stuff like this here on HN are downvoted into oblivion.

It's probably a tribal mentality: just like people become fans of some sports team (Giants vs. Red Sox) or car brands (Ford vs. Chevy) and develop a religious fanaticism about it, probably the same thing happens with Microsoft and Apple (we definitely see it a lot with the latter). Worse, with MS in particular, a lot of peoples' livelihoods are tied up in the whole MS ecosystem. So perhaps all the pro-MS downvoting and posting is coming from people who've bought into MS, especially for their careers (namely, legions of .NET programmers and MCSEs).

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#129

Post by farcical_tinpot » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 9:31 PM UTC

I wondered when Matthew Garrett would pipe up and deepthroat Microsoft again. He duly obliges.

When I first heard this I thought this was what I always thought would eventually happen with Secure Boot, but we haven't quite arrived at that point yet. Give it time when we eventually end up with critical mass.

What seems to be happening is similar to Kaby Lake in reverse. You restrict hardware and drivers needed to no only exclude other operating systems, which is a side-effect, but build in hardware obsolescence so you'll find yourself without any drivers or means to upgrade in future Windows versions.

You don't lock any chipset into an idiotic RAID mode in a laptop with a single disk. To claim this is done for power management reasons over perfectly standard AHCI is so stupid it isn't even funny, but Matthew likes defending stupid. He swears blind that Secure Boot will always be in a position where it can be turned off and Microsoft will not try anything on with key access. Because, you know, Microsoft's word and all that.

Be in no doubt, Microsoft and OEMs together want us all to throw away hardware and upgrade more regularly.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#130

Post by farcical_tinpot » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 9:34 PM UTC

raesene9 wrote: post #4

Also worth noting Lenovo's official statment on the matter http://www.techrepublic.com/article/lenovo-denies-deliberate... confirming that they have not blocked the installation of alternate operating systems. It was a shame to see the initial posts this morning hit the top of the page without any more evidence than a single customer support rep. who was unlikely to realistically have inside knowledge of some kind of…

They enabled something by default that I have not seen on any other system and disabled a way of changing it, which virtually every other system supports.

There is no good reason for this. Whatsoever.