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Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

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Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is saying they HAVE to support linux. Think of it like freedom of speech. Lenovo is free to put themselves out of business however they want and their consumers are free to call it a big ass mistake and call them idiots and not buy their blackbox crap.

Abosutely people are totally free not to buy their stuff. But that does not make it a conspiracy by MS or Lenovo. it is a commercial decision. companies get to make those consumers then get to choose whether to buy their stuff but it's not a conspiracy.

What conceivable commercial purpose of Lenovo is served by making it difficult for people to install operating systems other than Windows 10 on their laptops?

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#92

The moral of the story is that you shouldn't trust a low-level support engineer as a source for official company policy.

Or the uncritical tech press or the rubes on reddit, etc. Its obvious to me that we're living in a time where rumors, falsehoods, and purposeful misdirection are easily monetized and that's what our tech press has degenerated into. Critical voices just get downvoted away for being "shills" or somesuch. We live in a time where likes and upvotes control what we see and informed criticism being censored away by downvote…

As far as forums go, I find that HackerNews has one of the most civil and thought provoking discussions on the internet. This is most likely due to responsible moderation where differences of opinion are not only accepted, but respected. In fact, this forum practically moderates itself as I've seen many times a post gets downvoted into oblivion for making personal attacks or ad-hominem arguments. Perhaps this has to do with our (HackerNews users) disposition as engineers, researchers, and entrepreneurs. I may be blowing smoke here, but my perceptions has been that to be successful in those professions, one needs to accept failures/imperfect solutions and admit their mistakes more than others. For example, when I graduated from uni and entered my first developer gig, I completely wiped out a production database that hadn't had a backup run in over 2 years. I almost cried because I thought I was going to blow a great opportunity my first week on the job. After the wave of emotion finally washed over me, I realized that other departments had the data. It was just up to me to analyze the business processes, figure out where we fit into the flow, and work backwards to restore all the data. Most of us have been humbled by a superior dev at one point or another in our career and if we look back at code we wrote two years ago we realize just how much there is to learn. In addition, I've found that many brilliant engineers have impostor syndrome and there are far fewer in STEM fields that succumb to the Dunning-Kruger effect.

On the other hand, as Reddit has grown in popularity, the tyranny of the majority has reared its intolerant head. It truly is a hive mind. All the posts at the top are agreeing with each other (the dreaded circlejerk) or are a series of puns. Arguments are considered fallacious if there is a spelling or grammatical error, not ever considering that English may not be the posters first language. And when Reddit gets a hard-on for justice, it is so certain of its findings that it accuses innocent people of terrorism. (http://www.businessinsider.com/reddit-falsely-accuses-sunil-...). I don't know if this is due to its surge in popularity and/or that it became the site of choice for those who outgrew 4chan.

There was a TED talk (https://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_beware_online_filter_b...) that warned of the dangers of tailoring services to match our personal tastes. I hoped that the internet would expose people to ways of thinking that were just not available in their own localized social milieu. Instead, online filter bubbles/echo chambers promotes even more speculations, rumors, and lies even though there has never been an era where it's been easy, if one were so inclined to seek the truth. It's just sad that many of the social media sites encourage this behavior.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#93
post #4

Also worth noting Lenovo's official statment on the matter http://www.techrepublic.com/article/lenovo-denies-deliberate... confirming that they have not blocked the installation of alternate operating systems. It was a shame to see the initial posts this morning hit the top of the page without any more evidence than a single customer support rep. who was unlikely to realistically have inside knowledge of some kind of…

That's just nitpicking. They blocked the enabling of a setting which allows Linux to see the hard disk. They went out of their way to make a firmware change that has the effect that you cannot run Linux - unless you flash your BIOS or you write a driver. In my book, they effectively blocked the installation of Linux. Now, there are two options. 1) to support this hardware correctly, you'd need to make complex changes…

If you're going so far as to install Linux on a laptop that shipped Windows, flashing the BIOS isn't a big deal at all. The real problem is that it took a third-party to fix the BIOS rather than Lenovo releasing a "BIOS for Linux" directly. I get not wanting to expose it from the factory to keep a user from screwing themselves, but there's no reason not to provide it to the power user.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#94
post #46

Wasn't Lenovo the company that shipped unremovable malware with laptops? Considering the almost impossible to disable Intel management stuff is also there, I can only imagine the kind of parasite living on these machines. Why would anyone buy their stuff?

One of the parts of the MS Signature Series agreement is that there is no crapware, that what you get is pretty much the same if you installed a direct from microsoft copy of Windows. The signature series is probably the only line I would get from lenovo, because it's guaranteed not to need hours of futzing to get it working decently.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#95
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's a view, but did anyone actually ask Lenovo for official comment before posting the story as gospel truth? From what I've read, I saw no evidence that they had. I'd just suggesting a slightly more measured approach might have worked just as well....

Users don't have any other channel to ask Lenovo besides the forums and (apparently more effectively) leaving poor reviews on Best Buy and Amazon.

No? There's no way to contact Lenovo corporate? No customer support? Just that forum?

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should Lenovo provide a driver. Let's be honest, that's a commercial decision and entirely up to them if they want to support Linux installs on this hardware. Why should a commercial company be forced to provide support for a platform? If they advertise the hardware as supporting Linux then sure they absolutely should be required to support it. If they don't, then why should they have to support it?

It's the old distinction between "should do legally" and just "should do". Of course I don't believe they should be forced to do anything. But then I reserve the right to be indignant about this. And I also think it is a bit stupid: Lenovo had a reputation for having serious business Laptops. They cared about power-user customers who wanted to configure everything, and they had good Linux support. Either they messed…

You can still install Linux on all of their 'serious business laptops'... including the Thinkpad Yoga. The only reason this is a "screw-up" is because someone posted it here and the tech media got outraged... there are MANY other Ideapad/Y-series laptops that have very poor Linux support.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Lenovo_Thinkpad_Yoga_26...

Their laptop brands are VERY distinct, and have been for a long while. Thinkpad is the brand that you should recommend for Linux users, not Lenovo in general.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#97
post #67

What is crazy to me is that Lenovo is usually the brand that people recommend for Linux laptops. They are shooting themselves in the foot here. They may think that the number of people on Linux is too small, but I bet it is bigger than they think. It is just that there is no easy way to accurately census the amount of Linux users on their HW.

I used to recommend Lenovo (and before that, IBM) unconditionally for both Windows and Linux use. We called them the "Volvo of computers" because of their longevity, their performance, and their repairability.

Now I'm writing this on a Yoga Pro 2, which is nice in principle, but it's slowly starting to get wobbly, screws are falling out, the color is peeling off the keys, and I can't use Linux because the color yellow is replaced with fricking MUSTARD if you don't load a specific Windows only driver.

I actually poked a bit around in the drivers, and Lenovo fixes the problem by sending a few bytes to the Embedded Controller (a microcontroller on the motherboard). Lenovo doesn't give out the neccessary information, but I could reverse engineer it by kernel-debugging Windows. But the only way to do that on this Laptop would be via a special crossover USB3 debugger cable, which is out of sale. Before I soldered my own, I just gave up, and am now using Windows...

My next PC is going to be an Asus or a Dell (who would have thought a few years ago...).

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just nitpicking. They blocked the enabling of a setting which allows Linux to see the hard disk. They went out of their way to make a firmware change that has the effect that you cannot run Linux - unless you flash your BIOS or you write a driver. In my book, they effectively blocked the installation of Linux. Now, there are two options. 1) to support this hardware correctly, you'd need to make complex changes…

Should Lenovo provide a driver. Let's be honest, that's a commercial decision and entirely up to them if they want to support Linux installs on this hardware. Why should a commercial company be forced to provide support for a platform? If they advertise the hardware as supporting Linux then sure they absolutely should be required to support it. If they don't, then why should they have to support it?

> Why should a commercial company be forced to provide support for a platform?

Because it's support for installing an OS, which is not the same as supporting an OS. The OS installation itself is unsupported.

Users running an unsupported OS is cheaper than users running a prescribed, supported OS, problems with which generate support calls.

Supporting Linux is part of what I'm doing here at my job, in a company that makes SoC's. The customers want a base platform (Linux-based) with board support, packages, a toolchain and so on. That's "Linux support".

"This is not locked down, so you may install Linux on it" is not Linux support.

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#99
post #31

Without any comment from Lenovo or Microsoft this guy is speculating the same as everybody else.

"This guy" is relatively known for hacking on Linux laptop drivers and a long relationship with Intel hardware and power management in particular, so I'll stop short of appealing to authority and just say I value his speculation even if it is that. (Which I don't think it is.)

He also seems to have a severe hardon for EFI...

Re: Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating systems

#100
There was way too much rush to judgement here. Suspicion and skepticism are great, let those fires burn. But let's not condemn or blame until the issue has been aired out from all parties.

- MS shouldn't be blamed based on what the CEO of Lenovo says, let alone what a tech or BB rep says.

- MS shouldn't be blamed for new crimes based on past behavior

Why care about MS or any other megacorp? Because this salem witch trial shit is toxic and should not be condoned against anyone.

Rush to suspicion and demanding answers is great. There is no downside to saving blame for after the facts are in.

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