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Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

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Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#51
What was the case about?

Overall I have some different views about this, and I'm not sure how to react to some of the cognitive dissonance I notice.

On one hand people claim that privacy is paramount, on the other hand they seem to not question what and how becomes a public record, how it is kept and how easily it is accessible.

Overall the tone here seems to be that the "right to know" is as important or even more important than privacy which is a huge cognitive dissonance in my book.

What's worse is that this seem to be a case where privilege prevails, if you are wealthy you can expunge your record the old fashion way - PR and control the news cycle.

If you are not then you are screwed because the 15min of fame are the only thing that the "internet" as a collective seem to care about.

I don't know what happened at the restaurant nor do I know if it was important at the time or if it is still now but relevance can be assigned an expiration date.

The problem is that you can't "update" the internet, a newspaper isn't going to report that everything is nominal and that nothing happens, news by definition are a record of an abnormal event.

I can understand not wanting to have the top result of your restaurant being "4 puppies and a cat found dead, drugs and sign of sexual activity were discovered at the scene" being the top result in Google simply because there has been no "worse" news for the past 2-3 years about the same place.

For the most part I can agree with the concept of having to reevaluate the worth of information at a given time and evaluate does it deem the information "newsworthy" and within the public's right to know, anything else is a matter of historic record and gossip and it can still have effect on you today since no one is looking at the date.

What happens if some one else buys the restaurant? If the case was due to the misconduct of the previous owner should they be forced to change the name? Should the original owner be forced to rebrand just because something shitty happened at the place outside of their control that has no relevance to the performance of the restaurant or the safety of it's patrons today?

Not everything is an important record, saying "you don't know what is important to history" is silly, we can all agree that a war, a presidential election, a huge economic event, a scientific discovery etc. are more important to history than a random local crime or some other misconduct, we can also agree that not having everything available for immediate public access does not equate rewriting history.

Overall the 1984 comments are a bit silly, and are a false equivalency no one is claiming that historic public record should be rewritten, no one is claiming that some information should always be accessible, but claiming that information should be accessible regardless of how much damage vs benefit it does at any given time, and stripping all agency from the individual to control how information is published does not bode well for privacy.

Maybe Facebook should make everything accessible including things you delete, and if you say well Facebook isn't a newspaper then that argument holds less water every day since Facebook is now aggregating and generating news, and if you claim that you as an individual are not a public figure well how famous do you need to be to count as one? own a business? be a mayor? a celebrity? a government official? rich enough?

This is an argument that we desperately need to have and is is a very good sign that this case has been brought up (not necessarily the outcome) because we do need new rules. Being able to effectively "dox" anyone at a push of a button is going to be a big problem, and if you can about privacy and the real definition of it not the current confusion of privacy and secrecy; which is the agency you have to control what and whom you share information with you should care about this, as much if not more than you care about encryption and other technical controls.

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#52

Counter View. I don't expect this to sit well with HN. Is everything to be a sentence for life? I, and the law in many places, don't think that's fair. Whilst I don't think 2.5 yrs is the right balance, I do think much reporting should expire to an archive. If a restaurant did something wrong 10 years ago, but clean since (that's in the context of the UK with regular, visible, standards checks), who cares about the o…

The information won't actually disappear. That is just not how information and markets work.

The information will still be kept by legitimate archivists. If it can be kept by them it can be kept by governments. It can be kept by blackmailers It can be kept by accidents in old backups. There will be someone selling this information.

This just hides the issue while creating a massive tool for future censorship and new black market.

Any reasonable person will look back 10 years and see that the person posting stupid stuff on Facebook while drunk has cleaned up their act. Forcing the information to be hidden doesn't help, it just hides that you might be dealing with unreasonable people even if you would rather not.

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#53
post #21

Old newspapers don't (generally) disappear completely, they just get scarcer and harder to access. I would expect major newspapers to have complete microfilm/microfiche archives of their entire 20th century runs. I would think major libraries would, too. So getting access to a particular newspaper for an arbitrary date generally involves, worst case, a special trip to the offices of the newspaper or a library in the…

So basically make this information only available to the privileged?

I suffer from the "privilege" of uniqueness. I'm the only person in the world with my first/last combination. There are 12 living people with my last name, none of us share a first name. A few pages into a google search of me returns high school newspaper clippings from 15-20 years ago. An employer doing a background check on me gets my high jump results from 1999 within 5 minutes. Who's privileged, the 100 people who share the same name, myself, or the person trying to find information about one of those 101 people?

I would hope you wouldn't need a golden key to try to track down information, but it would be nice to have my history equally (in)accessible as someone else's.

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#54
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always kind of thought a better system would be one that lets you assume a new identity. This is a war that laws won't win. Data will get out, and once it's out, it's near impossible to get back. And people do make mistakes that shouldn't haunt them for the rest of their lives. A better system is one that lets you disassociate with that data.

Can you imagine the New Identity fraud!

This is a very good point. This is more of a distant idea that I've had, rather than a fully fledged out one, so I'm sure there are plenty of pitfalls that I haven't thought of.

Couldn't identity fraud be better handled if we had a system in place for it though? "Oh, my identity was stolen. Time to get a new one!"

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legal expiry timer starts at date of sentence. A John Smith might end up locally famous for a while, regret those Tequila shots leading to nude in the town square, damaging a statue, and a £500 fine. Some years after the magistrate passes sentence it ceases to exist and he's not obliged to tell. If you get three years for something more serious it never expires. If you're John Smith you're in luck having a common…

It's much more difficult problem, because reputation damage happens not only as a result of court decision. A politician could say very dumb and offensive things when he was young - should it really affect his political career?

Hasn't hurt Trump and he says "very dumb and offensive things" now.

People generally don't care what you did in the ancient past. The only time it matters is when it is a big deal. Like that Republican in the primaries who fabricated an incident involving a knife. Without a public record we wouldn't know.

We need an uncensored public record so we can verify what people say and guide our future decisions.

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#56
post #36
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we want something to be forgotten in X years we are better off blocking it being published. For example, I would argue that zero pre-conviction 'news' should be published about a defendant. It's directly counter to the idea of innocent until proven guilty. ED: One option might be to automatically use a different name. If I stop using "Retric" all my HN posts are divorced from my name. Abstractly, hearing about a 9…

My wife has the issue that she was the victim of a crime, and the news reported her in detail as the perp was underage and they couldn't publish his name. The result, my wife has had work colleagues ask about it, and one implied that she may have done something wrong to invite trouble. The victims and innocent in an incident can be affected by reportage too. We're European, and she tried to exercise the Right to be F…

Things happen. You don't get to modify history to suit you.

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#57

People make mistakes. We have never had the chance to genetically deal with or lived in societies where people don't forget. And worse, now can in seconds find about your worst. Do you think in 50 years of life you won't make a mistake (Then 30+ years of people knowing about it) Your small business can be your entire life. We might not be currently solving this issue properly. But it is still an issue we are going to…

Complete freedom of communication harms some individuals, but the harms of "right to be forgotten" laws are far greater. No matter how they're tweaked, they must by their very nature punish people for:

1. …conveying public information…

2. …that is true…

3. …to someone who requested it.

Any law of that sort is inimical to free expression and ripe for abuse.

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#58
post #36
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we want something to be forgotten in X years we are better off blocking it being published. For example, I would argue that zero pre-conviction 'news' should be published about a defendant. It's directly counter to the idea of innocent until proven guilty. ED: One option might be to automatically use a different name. If I stop using "Retric" all my HN posts are divorced from my name. Abstractly, hearing about a 9…

My wife has the issue that she was the victim of a crime, and the news reported her in detail as the perp was underage and they couldn't publish his name. The result, my wife has had work colleagues ask about it, and one implied that she may have done something wrong to invite trouble. The victims and innocent in an incident can be affected by reportage too. We're European, and she tried to exercise the Right to be F…

So why are we looking at Google to scrub the record of factual information, and not looking at shitty employers who think that this level of research on their employees or potential hires is appropriate?

I think "The right to be forgotten" is a ridiculous "right". You don't have the right to dictate what other people know and talk about. Perhaps make laws that prohibit employers from using news stories older than 5 years old against you during the hiring process, with exceptions for certain things. For example, a bank should be able to refuse to hire someone who was convicted of financial fraud 10 years ago, but perhaps shouldn't be able to refuse to hire someone because they got a DUI 10 years ago...

The difference would be if someone intentionally keeps republishing dirt about you with the intent to harass, in which case libel/slander torts could be used to address non-factual information, and harassment torts could be used address irrelevant/dated factual information.

Scrubbing the internet of factual information to protect people's feelings is a very concerning form of censorship. It's obviously abusable and actively being abused, so companies like Google aren't even going to try to comply.

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#59
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for posting this. Many are also persistently pushing to change what is 'acceptable' vocabulary to change how people think, as Orwell described in the Newspeak appendix.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#The_Newsp...

http://alexjs.com/ for example.

In 1984 they weren't trying to adjust the vocabulary to be more inclusive and make every feel more comfortable about open discourse in a fully optional way.

They wanted to erase words that could denigrate the party, change the meanings of words that could be used against the party or add new words that could only say good thing about the party.

Things libel laws that stop free speech, how many politicians wiggle through the truth or how people who try to mandate political correct speech like extreme SJWs seem like the problems indicated here.

Re: Italian Supreme Court: News "expires", online archives would need to be deleted

#60
post #47

Counter View. I don't expect this to sit well with HN. Is everything to be a sentence for life? I, and the law in many places, don't think that's fair. Whilst I don't think 2.5 yrs is the right balance, I do think much reporting should expire to an archive. If a restaurant did something wrong 10 years ago, but clean since (that's in the context of the UK with regular, visible, standards checks), who cares about the o…

"X happened" is a historical fact. You cannot change the fact. You can wish it were not a fact because then the world would be a more fair just and beautiful place. But your wishes don't matter, the fact still stands. Like millions of dinosaurs wishing the asteroid hadn't hit because it would make their world better, it doesn't matter, the fact still stands.

>Like millions of dinosaurs wishing the asteroid hadn't hit because it would make their world better, it doesn't matter, the fact still stands.

That's what they get for not investing more into a space program.

Our turn may be next.

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