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Nootropics

gwern.net

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Re: Nootropics

#271

Post by imagist »

fowlerpower wrote: post #28

Does anyone else think this shit is totally bat shit crazy? I may be of the minority here but I am definitely not the minority in the real world. If you care about health why not exercise and eat healthy and never take any type of drug for any reason unless you are sick.

> I may be of the minority here but I am definitely not the minority in the real world.

I disagree. I think huge numbers of people take nootropics frequently if not daily (caffeine and prescribed mood-altering drugs) and I'd bet that you'd consider these completely normal and non-crazy. But that belief is based in normativity, not logic. All of these substances have negative side effects, and the industry around prescription drugs is very much at odds with the actual research around prescription drugs. In fact, the only substances on the list which I think probably don't have negative side effects are ones that most people probably don't take (Fish Oil and Vitamin D3).

> If you care about health why not exercise and eat healthy and never take any type of drug for any reason unless you are sick.

What's a drug? What's sick?

Arguably, refined sugar is a drug, or the dopamine that you get from surfing news sources like HN. And things like caffeine, which are entirely normative, aren't even arguable: they're just obviously drugs.

Arguably, being inflicted with a need to work 40 hours a week on tasks that don't fulfill our emotional or social needs is a horrible chronic illness. It certainly has affected my life more negatively than my chronic allergies (which I live with, untreated).

Choosing to take a nootropic should be about the tradeoffs, and health definitely is not the only factor.

Re: Nootropics

#272

Post by Practicality »

fowlerpower wrote: post #28

Does anyone else think this shit is totally bat shit crazy? I may be of the minority here but I am definitely not the minority in the real world. If you care about health why not exercise and eat healthy and never take any type of drug for any reason unless you are sick.

I am a little ambivalent about that.

How about coffee, vitamin d, calcium and tyrosine?

All of them have proven benefits, nothing fringe: http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-o...

That combined with exercise, sleep and eating well is pretty much my "stack."

Personally I would rather not risk the possibility of destroying my brain with something unproven. However, for things with proven benefits and little chance of side-effects, well, why not?

So, while I would prefer to avoid self-experimentation personally, I am glad others are working to establish what works, what is safe, etc.

Re: Nootropics

#273

Post by driverdan »

lisper wrote: post #80
HalfwayToDice wrote: post #74

The best nootropic is getting a good nights sleep. It takes effort! Preparing for bed early and disciplining yourself to put the light out is not easy. Not nearly as easy as popping a pill. But it's so much more effective than any drug listed here. And for a safe and provable quick cognitive boost, take some caffeine, preferable green tea with theanine.

This. And use Flux. Blue light after 9PM is the enemy.

Just turn down your display brightness at night.

Personally I can't stand Flux. I hate the false colors it creates.

Re: Nootropics

#274

Post by arca_vorago »

HalfwayToDice wrote: post #74

The best nootropic is getting a good nights sleep. It takes effort! Preparing for bed early and disciplining yourself to put the light out is not easy. Not nearly as easy as popping a pill. But it's so much more effective than any drug listed here. And for a safe and provable quick cognitive boost, take some caffeine, preferable green tea with theanine.

This is one of the side effects of ptsd that can make a big difference, since sleep really is so important. Mine is more of a hypervigilance (I can almost be asleep and then hear a sound and all senses are in overdrive, so usually I just get up and patrol the perimeter of the house and check locks/doors/camera systems), but many of my buddies drank themselves to sleep every night. Most of them have switched to MJ and swear it's the best thing ever for them vs alcohol.

As a side note, I also think MJ counts as a nootropic when used properly, and I often think about Carl Sagans Mr. X article about it in this light, in the sense that a different perspective can help you solve issues or think about issues in a different way than you might have otherwise. This is why I highly suggest that people trying MJ try to be productive while on it instead of just (read: only) vegging.

Re: Nootropics

#275

Post by saiya-jin »

jonathankoren wrote: post #70
marodox wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He probably has tried drug free, exercise and sleep over a month.

Where's the write up? Many people, including myself, find exercise to be mind numbingly boring, and intellectually insulting. (Pick up a weight and put it down? That is quantitatively zero work, buddy. No thanks.) Never underestimate the motivation to find a quick fix.

that's just sad approach to life... well your body will come back with receipt for this behavior later, it always does. what you will do then, take more pills?

and exercise can be anything physical that makes you sweat, why the need to take only weightlifting into account?

Re: Nootropics

#276

Post by driverdan »

cavisne wrote: post #16

Its concerning to see Modafinil on the same list of "defaults" as caffeine and vitamin D. They are on a different scale when it comes to the effect on your brain. That aside, my anecdotal experience of mod is its basically a waste of time. Sure you stay awake longer but we can all easily procrastinate a day away regardless, it wont make you any more focused or any smarter. If you for some reason need to improve your…

> it wont make you any more focused or any smarter

This depends on your brain chemistry. Most people I've talked to who have used Modafinil do have increased focus, just like other stimulants.

Re: Nootropics

#277

Post by forloop »

aninhumer wrote: post #269
forloop wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best nootropic is getting a good nights sleep. The above is a direct quote from OP. Where's the metaphor? You're grossly mistaken! > but that it is something that performs the same function Can sleep gives one supranormal cognition? No. Does sleep perform the same function as modafinil (a drug which gives you more time to work since you need less sleep)? They're nearly opposites. Does sleep perform the same fun…

>The above is a direct quote from OP. Where's the metaphor? You're grossly mistaken! I interpret that as I would my example "the best defence is a good offence". It's an out-of-category example given for rhetorical effect. Perhaps I'm mistaken and that's not what OP meant, but I don't see why you're so certain about it. >Can sleep gives one supranormal cognition? Yes if you define "normal" as not getting enough sleep…

You're intellectually dishonest. It doesn't matter how many times I destroy your points you'll slime back with highly improbable interpretations of statements.

Re: Nootropics

#278

Post by Practicality »

ajkjk wrote: post #66
daveguy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His testing and analysis are not exactly rigorous. Even with an N=1 he comments about how he can smell the difference between the placebo and treatment. In his most highly rated drug, modafinil, he took it on 8 different days and could tell which one it was 5/8 times. 8 days, couldn't tell the difference 3/8 times and it is his most highly recommended drug. He definitely needs to try drug free, exercise and sleep ove…

If you know someone who has better data, I'm sure everyone would like to read it. You have to at least be impressed with the level of rigor he did manage for a person working alone to test hundreds of chemicals.

"If you know someone who has better data, I'm sure everyone would like to read it."

He links to a site all over the place with mountains of data http://examine.com/

Also, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/

(And many others)

Seriously, there is a lot of research into many of these supplements. It's not like Gwern is our only source of information. I have nothing against the information he is giving, but it's far from the only source.

Re: Nootropics

#279

Post by saiya-jin »

fao_ wrote: post #200
wolfgoatcabbage wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, sitting in a chair all day could be construed as physically insulting. Two counters: 1) There's no reason exercise by nature has to be boring or free of intellect. Physics greatly applies to freestyle snowboarding, for instance, and the adrenaline is top-shelf. Not to mention the scenery and vitamin D! Gymnastic and weightlifting activities in general encourage a practical understanding of leverage…

> Not to mention the scenery and vitamin D! As far as I can tell, typical snowboarding gear consists of a thick jacket, long trousers (or somesuch), with goggles and a snow hat. To produce Vitamin D the light has to actually come in contact with the skin .

there are much cooler activities than that, and ones you can actually do all year around, not just few weeks if weather/snowfall permits (realistically it shrinks to couple of weekends/a week for most people).

- sport climbing - you wouldn't believe how cool and stimulating the sport is, switch indoor/boulder when weather is bad. cool people in community too

- mix of backcountry skiing in winter and hiking anytime else will give you huge amounts of nature that is very relaxing on the mind (easy rule - the more mind works daily, the more body workout it needs to relax, and vice versa)

Re: Nootropics

#280

Post by computerphage »

bbctol wrote: post #257

There is a huge, huge placebo effect when it comes to cognitive enhancement, and while I understand that this is intended as a series of anecdotes, it still seems that the author doesn't fully understand this. Most notably, for his attempts at blinding himself, he doesn't seem to have measured any actual cognitive improvement , just whether or not he could successfully distinguish drug and placebo. This is a large mi…

I think Gwern understands many of the limits of his experimental design. He's has written extensively on a wide variety of statistical and scientific topics.

Here's an example related to placebo that's linked to from his blog. http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/689936-My-Paper-quot-Noo...

See also: https://www.gwern.net/Statistical%20notes

I'm not saying he's a perfect researcher, but give him some credit instead of assuming he doesn't understand what he's talking about.

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