Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species • Hacker News Board

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species

#21

Post by lhnz » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 10:55 AM UTC

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #10

flexie wrote: post #7

Imagine the wealth a company could amass if it succeeded in terraforming mars. Rare metals, sale of land etc. This is one of those markets where you have rather high barriers to entry.

I'm really not sure I want companies to have the capability to re-format entire planets. That sounds like entirely too much power for any organisation to have, if only given its potential for weaponisation. And land sale? The Outer Space Treaty [1] prohibits governments from claiming ownership of planets, so where would the authority to sell land on Mars come from? Do we really want companies to own planets? Weyland-…

> I'm really not sure I want companies to have the capability to re-format entire planets.

Does that mean you're against terraforming entirely, or would you prefer for the US/Russian/Chinese government to be the only powers allowed to do so?

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species

#22

Post by espadrine » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 10:56 AM UTC

dharma1 wrote: post #17

If we succeed (long term), will there be countries in Mars? Governance? Who will own the land and resources?

It is really no different than it has always been. If a colony on Mars wants independence, it can draft a military to enforce its independence and/or seek the diplomatic approval of other nations.

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species

#23

Post by arethuza » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 11:00 AM UTC

espadrine wrote: post #20

tehmillhouse wrote: post #2

Judging by the preview image for the live stream (yeah, I wish I had more to go on, too), this looks to be a long-haul plan for terraforming mars. I wouldn't hold my breath for the first actual settlements up there. That being said: Yes. Oh yes. Fuck yes. All my yesses.

I love the idea BUT… If we can't terraform Earth's deserts, do we really stand a chance with Mars? I might be mistaken in my analysis. Still, the only way a colony might survive seems to be by sending tremendous amounts of resources to Mars yearly. They can never hope to be self-sustaining until either astronomically large amounts of time or astronomically large amounts of energy are spent.

"They can never hope to be self-sustaining until either astronomically large amounts of time or astronomically large amounts of energy are spent."

That might be true, but if we could divert even a small part of the global arms industry to something as constructive as colonizing a new world then I suspect we might help things here as well as achieving something wonderful.

Edit: "Oh yes. Fuck yes. All my yesses"

Can I second this. I remember reading Zubrin's "The Case for Mars" and getting quite enthusiastic about actually being a Martian colonist :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_for_Mars

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species

#24

Post by flexie » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 11:02 AM UTC

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #10

flexie wrote: post #7

Imagine the wealth a company could amass if it succeeded in terraforming mars. Rare metals, sale of land etc. This is one of those markets where you have rather high barriers to entry.

I'm really not sure I want companies to have the capability to re-format entire planets. That sounds like entirely too much power for any organisation to have, if only given its potential for weaponisation. And land sale? The Outer Space Treaty [1] prohibits governments from claiming ownership of planets, so where would the authority to sell land on Mars come from? Do we really want companies to own planets? Weyland-…

Any country bound by that treaty can withdraw from the treaty with a notice of one year, considerably shorter time frame than necessary for terraforming Mars, I suppose. If the US won't withdraw, then other countries would. And there are already nations that haven't signed it.

Also, Spacex is not a party to the treaty. The treaty binds the countries, not their citizens or companies. I don't know if there are internal US laws banning sale of land.

Finally, the ban in many state laws on selling cars directly to consumers didn't hold back Tesla. I doubt a treaty from 1967 would hold back SpaceX

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species

#25

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 11:05 AM UTC

espadrine wrote: post #22

dharma1 wrote: post #17

If we succeed (long term), will there be countries in Mars? Governance? Who will own the land and resources?

It is really no different than it has always been. If a colony on Mars wants independence, it can draft a military to enforce its independence and/or seek the diplomatic approval of other nations.

[deleted]

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species

#26

Post by sillysaurus3 » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 11:17 AM UTC

espadrine wrote: post #20

tehmillhouse wrote: post #2

Judging by the preview image for the live stream (yeah, I wish I had more to go on, too), this looks to be a long-haul plan for terraforming mars. I wouldn't hold my breath for the first actual settlements up there. That being said: Yes. Oh yes. Fuck yes. All my yesses.

I love the idea BUT… If we can't terraform Earth's deserts, do we really stand a chance with Mars? I might be mistaken in my analysis. Still, the only way a colony might survive seems to be by sending tremendous amounts of resources to Mars yearly. They can never hope to be self-sustaining until either astronomically large amounts of time or astronomically large amounts of energy are spent.

Not a high chance. Earth has a molten core, which generates a magnetic field that shields us from harmful cosmic rays. It's been like this for so long that we've evolved to require this shielding.

Mars has less of a molten core, and a very weak magnetosphere. Therefore outdoor terraforming seems unlikely. We may have to walk around on Mars inside shielded colonies only, along with whatever other life we bring: plants, animals, everything.

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species

#27

Post by andyjohnson0 » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 11:21 AM UTC

lhnz wrote: post #21

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really not sure I want companies to have the capability to re-format entire planets. That sounds like entirely too much power for any organisation to have, if only given its potential for weaponisation. And land sale? The Outer Space Treaty [1] prohibits governments from claiming ownership of planets, so where would the authority to sell land on Mars come from? Do we really want companies to own planets? Weyland-…

> I'm really not sure I want companies to have the capability to re-format entire planets. Does that mean you're against terraforming entirely, or would you prefer for the US/Russian/Chinese government to be the only powers allowed to do so?

I'm definitely not against terraforming, but I'd be against individual governments doing it for the same reasons that I gave for corporations. IMO it would have to be an international endeavour. Certainly wen we're talking about the solar system, where the number of candidate planets is basically two (plus Titan?). Does a Chinese planet and a US planet and a Facebook moon represent a useful and viable future?

In some far-future scenario where there are thousands of accessible planets suitable for terraforming then maybe it would be ok for corps and governments to do as they wish. But you're past the point where there is likely to be any overall political or legal system of control anyway.

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species

#28

Post by chii » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 11:24 AM UTC

flexie wrote: post #24

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really not sure I want companies to have the capability to re-format entire planets. That sounds like entirely too much power for any organisation to have, if only given its potential for weaponisation. And land sale? The Outer Space Treaty [1] prohibits governments from claiming ownership of planets, so where would the authority to sell land on Mars come from? Do we really want companies to own planets? Weyland-…

Any country bound by that treaty can withdraw from the treaty with a notice of one year, considerably shorter time frame than necessary for terraforming Mars, I suppose. If the US won't withdraw, then other countries would. And there are already nations that haven't signed it. Also, Spacex is not a party to the treaty. The treaty binds the countries, not their citizens or companies. I don't know if there are internal…

The legitimacy of a company or individual is derived from the country they belong to - the country who signed the treaty would have to enforce it against their citizens.

The Outer Space Treaty will be repealed as soon as practical colonization and commercial resource extraction is viable and profitable.

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species

#29

Post by andyjohnson0 » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 11:28 AM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #18

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really not sure I want companies to have the capability to re-format entire planets. That sounds like entirely too much power for any organisation to have, if only given its potential for weaponisation. And land sale? The Outer Space Treaty [1] prohibits governments from claiming ownership of planets, so where would the authority to sell land on Mars come from? Do we really want companies to own planets? Weyland-…

The Outer Space Treaty was written with the party states knowing that it was a medium term measure. Capitalism will come to The Moon, Mars, and Venus. It will start with people just building wherever there is available land, like we did on the frontier, then once a couple thousand or a couple hundred thousand people are in outer space a new treaty will be formed around the political realities of the day.

I agree. In some ways the OST resembles the Antarctic Treaty: intended to mitigate the near and medium-term problems until something new comes along.

And I don't have a problem with capitalism per se, but our legal and political systems don't seem to be doing a very good job of managing its excesses.

Re: Making Humans a Multiplanetary Species

#30

Post by rmc » Wed, Sep 21, 2016, 11:29 AM UTC

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #10

flexie wrote: post #7

Imagine the wealth a company could amass if it succeeded in terraforming mars. Rare metals, sale of land etc. This is one of those markets where you have rather high barriers to entry.

I'm really not sure I want companies to have the capability to re-format entire planets. That sounds like entirely too much power for any organisation to have, if only given its potential for weaponisation. And land sale? The Outer Space Treaty [1] prohibits governments from claiming ownership of planets, so where would the authority to sell land on Mars come from? Do we really want companies to own planets? Weyland-…

> And land sale? The Outer Space Treaty [1] prohibits governments from claiming ownership of planets, so where would the authority to sell land on Mars come from?

Possession is 11 tenths of the law.

The Treaty of Tordesillas gave the modern USA to Spain. How'd that go?