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Oracle is gunning for AWS with new infrastructure offering

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Re: Oracle is gunning for AWS with new infrastructure offering

#151
post #122

Knowing what we do about Oracle's licensing practices and how their sales people are basically just loan sharks that will take your kneecaps out if you don't pay their extortion fees, why would you ever want to put your entire operation in their hands? I would assume they'd have no issue cutting you off from your entire infrastructure at the drop of a hat if there was a billing dispute.

Lets not act like the other vendors in the database arena are cherubim. MS, IBM, Oracle, NetApp, EMC, all perform audits, and try to squeeze the most out of large enterprises. They see large companies just like casinos; as whales. And part of that is because it's a lot easier to just buy the big packages than try to roll postgres or mysql into a stack built up on other OTS software. For example, I'd prefer to run Deb…

I'd prefer to run Debian instead of RHEL, but since the stack I have to support uses Oracle

Here you go: https://gaiustech.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/howto-install-ora...

Re: Oracle is gunning for AWS with new infrastructure offering

#152
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I attended an Oracle sales conference once (for the canapes, very good) and happened to be in the auditorium for one of the speakers. There were lasers. There was dry ice. Vanessa Mae was playing the electric violin. A director on stage bellowed we will bring $competitor TO THEIR KNEES! Everyone was on their feet cheering, I've been to metal gigs that were less intense. Oracle takes sales very, very seriously.

The gotcha in all of this is that the brutal competition in the cloud means that there isn't the profit margin to pay for all of this glitz anymore in the business.

I don't doubt this lavish event paid for itself many, many times over in terms of how pumped up the sales people were to hit their numbers that year

Re: Oracle is gunning for AWS with new infrastructure offering

#153
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If beating AWS on price is trivial, why is nobody doing that to beat them? The only place I have a gripe on AWS pricing is bandwidth. I keep waiting for the announcement that bandwidth is being cut in half next month and it hasn't happened. I've done the datacenter thing many times and there are so many pieces to the costs of running your own that most people don't include. The biggest one is just plain agility. Pred…

What do you mean why is nobody doing that? Lots of providers are doing that. Almost the only providers in the same price league as AWS are Google Cloud, Azure and Rackspace. All of them appear to assume (rightly so, judging by peoples reaction) that they can keep their margins high on the basis of brand name recognition and specialist features, and none of them seem interested in rocking the boat. They will drop thei…

> What do you mean why is nobody doing that? Lots of providers are doing that.

And not a single one of them has anything close to the wide and growing offering that AWS presents.

> AWS bandwidth pricing is 5x-50x higher than the providers I usually use. E.g. for the cost of 1TB of transfer at AWS you can rent a server for a month + multiple TB of transfer elsewhere. Cutting it in half would still leave them ridiculously expensive for bandwidth.

But that bandwidth is usually capped in speed and is dedicated to only that instance. No provider like this can handle all of their clients using 80% of their allotted bandwidth. AWS's bandwidth may be expensive, but it is as elastic as you can get and you are never over-provisioning. It's also negotiable just like anything else.

> but I've also had more extreme examples, like a customer that cut their hosting cost to 1/10th.

I'd be interested to hear particulars of this. Obviously it is your edge case, but I find it hard to believe that somebody can cut their costs that much unless they were way over-provisioned on AWS or they are not really counting all of the costs. I have never seen a DC that didn't have more management overhead to run than a full cloud offering.

Re: Oracle is gunning for AWS with new infrastructure offering

#154
I coincidentally have a meeting with some sales reps and an engineer about their cloud infrastructure this afternoon. Anyone have questions they'd like asked?

I'm trying to figure out if we can get our enterprise customers to trust their private cloud tech and then deploy our products within it.

It's a long shot, but I have trouble saying no to sales people before there's money involved.

Re: Oracle is gunning for AWS with new infrastructure offering

#155
post #83
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nimbula, yes. It's so very bad. Oracle's IaaS cloud is a Potemkin village.

No, not Nimbula. Nebula: http://www.businessinsider.com/oracle-hires-nebula-employees...

They bought Nimbula back in 2013 as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimbula

The naming was always confusing because both companies were based within a mile of each other, never mind the product overlap.

Re: Oracle is gunning for AWS with new infrastructure offering

#156
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just picked up a guy I know who has no cloud experience for a bundle of money. Seems like a bunch of people around seattle are getting the mounds of cash.

What if I needed an intro to this guy of yours? (simone dot brunozzi @ gmail)

I recently joined this team from Azure. Lots of senior AWS and Joyent folks here as well. Send me a mail at joe dot levy at oracle dot com and I can connect you with the right folks. Same goes for anyone else interested!

Re: Oracle is gunning for AWS with new infrastructure offering

#157
post #151
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets not act like the other vendors in the database arena are cherubim. MS, IBM, Oracle, NetApp, EMC, all perform audits, and try to squeeze the most out of large enterprises. They see large companies just like casinos; as whales. And part of that is because it's a lot easier to just buy the big packages than try to roll postgres or mysql into a stack built up on other OTS software. For example, I'd prefer to run Deb…

I'd prefer to run Debian instead of RHEL, but since the stack I have to support uses Oracle Here you go: https://gaiustech.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/howto-install-ora...

And when you call up Oracle for support, they laugh and tell you to GTFO...

Re: Oracle is gunning for AWS with new infrastructure offering

#158
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean why is nobody doing that? Lots of providers are doing that. Almost the only providers in the same price league as AWS are Google Cloud, Azure and Rackspace. All of them appear to assume (rightly so, judging by peoples reaction) that they can keep their margins high on the basis of brand name recognition and specialist features, and none of them seem interested in rocking the boat. They will drop thei…

> What do you mean why is nobody doing that? Lots of providers are doing that. And not a single one of them has anything close to the wide and growing offering that AWS presents. > AWS bandwidth pricing is 5x-50x higher than the providers I usually use. E.g. for the cost of 1TB of transfer at AWS you can rent a server for a month + multiple TB of transfer elsewhere. Cutting it in half would still leave them ridiculou…

> And not a single one of them has anything close to the wide and growing offering that AWS presents.

I don't think that's an accurate statement. Google Cloud and Azure have broad offerings, and in many cases eclipse AWS (ex: Big Data, ML, pricing, BI, NoSQL, Hadoop/Spark, containers, and even things like load balancers and persistent storage).

Re: Oracle is gunning for AWS with new infrastructure offering

#159
post #157
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd prefer to run Debian instead of RHEL, but since the stack I have to support uses Oracle Here you go: https://gaiustech.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/howto-install-ora...

And when you call up Oracle for support, they laugh and tell you to GTFO...

Have you ever called Oracle support? That would only be saving you time...

Re: Oracle is gunning for AWS with new infrastructure offering

#160
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean why is nobody doing that? Lots of providers are doing that. Almost the only providers in the same price league as AWS are Google Cloud, Azure and Rackspace. All of them appear to assume (rightly so, judging by peoples reaction) that they can keep their margins high on the basis of brand name recognition and specialist features, and none of them seem interested in rocking the boat. They will drop thei…

> What do you mean why is nobody doing that? Lots of providers are doing that. And not a single one of them has anything close to the wide and growing offering that AWS presents. > AWS bandwidth pricing is 5x-50x higher than the providers I usually use. E.g. for the cost of 1TB of transfer at AWS you can rent a server for a month + multiple TB of transfer elsewhere. Cutting it in half would still leave them ridiculou…

> And not a single one of them has anything close to the wide and growing offering that AWS presents.

And that's why it is sometimes worthwhile using AWS. But most people don't use any of the advanced features of AWS.

> But that bandwidth is usually capped in speed and is dedicated to only that instance. No provider like this can handle all of their clients using 80% of their allotted bandwidth

You are jumping to conclusions that I'm only talking about "all inclusive" server rental deals. That's not the case.

You can buy bandwidth at a committed information rate charged based on a 5 minute 95th percentile billing which will typically end up at ~10% of AWS cost with ease unless you have extremely high/lasting spikes in a vast number of data centres from a large number of providers.

Much less if you take advantage of peering or buy limited transit (e.g. if you're in the UK, and most of your traffic is within the UK, you can cut your cost drastically once you reach any kind of volume by getting peering agreements in place for most of your UK bandwidth use, pay a low cost for Europe-only transit, and pay a higher cost for a much lower amount of worldwide transit; it has a management overhead so it doesn't pay until your bandwidth bill starts growing, which is why most people will start off by taking "only" straight unrestricted transit at a higher cost per Mbps/Gbps)

You can also pay per GB/TB and end up paying far less than AWS.

E.g. at Hetzner, you pay per TB over a minimum limit, just like with AWS. For Hetzner, the current overage rate is €1.17 per TB. I have no reason to assume that they're losing on money on that - they'be be able to hand most of that off via peering agreements.

> I'd be interested to hear particulars of this. Obviously it is your edge case, but I find it hard to believe that somebody can cut their costs that much unless they were way over-provisioned on AWS or they are not really counting all of the costs. I have never seen a DC that didn't have more management overhead to run than a full cloud offering.

They moved EC2 instances to Hetzner instances of roughly same speed. That's all there was too it - Hetzner server prices are low, and their bandwidth prices are as mentioned about €1.17 per TB above a limit per instance that's large enough that they've yet to exceed them, and that's the thing that's making the biggest difference (I've actually in the past cut peoples AWS bills by putting boxes at Hetzner and elsewhere purely as caches in front of their AWS setups because of the huge bandwidth differential - for people who spend much on bandwidth, it can pay for the extra servers many times over)

My experience is that we had no problems meeting similar bandwidth levels per machine as they did at AWS. Management is roughly the same complexity. They ended up using "bare metal" dedicated servers (Hetzner also offers VPSs) so they have access to IPMI to manage reboots etc. as necessary, and Hetzners rescue system lets them reimage the servers at will, so after investing a few k on scripting server installs it's as automated as their AWS setup was. They pay a very minimal extra overhead in an encrypted VPN between instances (and with current setup would pay for bandwidth for that if they exceed the included bandwidth allotment), though you can avoid this with some extra complexity (you can pay Hetzner some small fee and get servers wired up to a private network).

The cost difference includes the per-hour costs paid to keep either service running - the latter setup has actually cost them less in time spent managing it.

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