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Nootropics

gwern.net

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Re: Nootropics

#121
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He probably has tried drug free, exercise and sleep over a month.

Where's the write up? Many people, including myself, find exercise to be mind numbingly boring, and intellectually insulting. (Pick up a weight and put it down? That is quantitatively zero work, buddy. No thanks.) Never underestimate the motivation to find a quick fix.

>Many people, including myself, find exercise to be mind numbingly boring, and intellectually insulting.

The supreme irony of this thread is that the exact mindset you're describing here would probably be alleviated by the stimulants being debated as an alternative(?) to exercise.

I suspect this plays no small part in the historical use of just about every stimulant under the sun including cocaine, amphetamine and modafinil by athletes looking to get ahead. Said athletes were probably still literal leaps and bounds healthier than the average member of the population.

Of course, no drug is an alternative to exercise and good sleep, and nothing about those two things would preclude you from taking any drug I can think of. It's a false dichotomy that breeds silly arguments.

That said, the use of such things is probably not strictly healthy. However, rather than worrying about winding up on a 'faces of meth' poster[0] I would consider how much one is really benefiting from use. The stimulant drug classes are infamous for their ability to persuade people that they're receiving much greater enhancements in ability than is really the case.

"Cocaine produces, for those who sniff its powdery white crystals, an illusion of supreme well being, and a soaring overconfidence in both physical and mental ability. You think you could whip the heavyweight champion, and that you are smarter than anybody. There was also that feeling of timelessness. And there were intervals of ability to recall and review things that had happened years back with an astonishing clarity." - The Autobiography Of Malcolm X, pages 137-138

"Like their British counterparts, the American scientists evaluating amphetamine for the military consistently found that, by all but a few measures, amphetamine did not objectively improve or restore performance lost to physical exhaustion, lack of sleep, or low oxygen any better than caffeine. Users certainly felt that the drug boosted their performance, but subjective impressions seldom reflected objective performance. Even where measurable gains were occasionally produced these were largely or entirely due to increased optimism and persistence in the contrived test conditions." - On Speed: The Many Lives Of Amphetamines, Nicolas Rasmussen, pages 81-82.

You are after all paying quite a cost on multiple levels for whatever gains are alleged, so you had best be sure they're real.

[0]: It's important to keep in mind the order of magnitude(s) difference between therapeutic doses and the mega-doses used by tweakers. In the latter case you should definitely be worried about winding up on a 'faces of meth' poster.

Re: Nootropics

#122
How is this compilation of anecdotal evidence even a thing on HN?

I performed well on the Cambridge mental rotations test. An anecdote, of course, and it may be due to the vitamin D I simultaneously started. Or another day, I was slumped under apathy after a promising start to the day; a dose of fish & coconut oil, and 1 last vitamin D, and I was back to feeling chipper and optimist.

Re: Nootropics

#123
So you're telling me you alter your biochemistry to become more productive without a care for how it affects your overall (mostly mental) health? Hell, I started smoking cigarettes at 16, which I rank near the top of my worst decisions ever, despite the fact that it helped me hack my brain chemistry as I powered through numerous difficult math and CS classes with top scores. As a result, I spent years thrashing, kicking the insane habit and returning to baseline healthiness.

To me, the entire idea of performance-enhancing chemicals is the essence of Moloch (http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/) - the supposed optimization that we choose to "gain an edge" and end up worse off than if everyone had just been a bit more cynical and abstained. To what ends? Eventually this kind of thing ends up costing you $50 a month and keeping you on par with everyone else in the office (who also happen to brain-chemistry-hack), side-effects be damned.

Luckily, I can fall back on my experience and relative skill at programming. Many cannot - as a late-aughts college student and "yuppie", I saw "the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness" induced by incessant Adderall use in a futile attempt to either "keep up" or "get ahead". To what ends? Some sped their way through upper-levels or toiled through back-breaking entry level jobs only to develop near psychosis, emotional numbness, apathy, and a resume piece that I too gained with considerably less strife.

Don't get me wrong, I drink a cup of coffee (or two) in the mornings to get going, but it's usually an break from my workday, not an essential part of it. More than that, it's enjoyable - added focus and clarity be damned. Silly as it may sound, I've even seen coffee become a problem for the hopelessly driven and chronically sleep-deprived - reducing them to diarrhea-ridden, jittery maniacs!

Maybe the TL;DR here is: sleep more, bike hard, and have some fun struggling instead of constantly grinding for carrots on sticks. It is true, after all, that many people (men, in particular) say their greatest regret was working so hard - https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-fiv...

Re: Nootropics

#124

Does anyone else think this shit is totally bat shit crazy? I may be of the minority here but I am definitely not the minority in the real world. If you care about health why not exercise and eat healthy and never take any type of drug for any reason unless you are sick.

Different people have different risk:reward ratios.

You've seen what gwern has written. He makes clear the monetary trade off. He also explains how some of the drugs are well studied, and most probably safe.

These people aren't crazy. You just don't understand...

Quick, let's ban everything except alcohol & cigerettes! They only kill a combined ~7.5 million people per year. Nice and sane.

Re: Nootropics

#125

Does anyone else think this shit is totally bat shit crazy? I may be of the minority here but I am definitely not the minority in the real world. If you care about health why not exercise and eat healthy and never take any type of drug for any reason unless you are sick.

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Re: Nootropics

#126

I stopped reading after the grammar of the first two sentences. I cannot parse the second sentence, although I think I get what they are trying to say. Fair or not, I interpret this as a public service announcement against nootropics.

(people need to upvote parent). You started from the lowest-level (reading word by word) but I started at the highest: after skimming the first couple of sentences I scrolled down trying to get an "overview", I tried to take in the main things, to read a Conclusions section, to read something that would put all these things in perspective. (The "background" first section and the couple of sentences that precede it aren't any kind of good abstract, or if they are then I missed it while skimming.)

But I didn't see it - I couldn't "see the forest for the trees."

So take it as strike two against the author and therefore against nootropics: while there might be a wealth of detail that it uncovers, too many details will make you lose the perspective, and, indeed, the whole point.

Like when someone writes a groundbreaking optimizing compiler or something, but can't even tell you why.

Re: Nootropics

#127

The best nootropic is getting a good nights sleep. It takes effort! Preparing for bed early and disciplining yourself to put the light out is not easy. Not nearly as easy as popping a pill. But it's so much more effective than any drug listed here. And for a safe and provable quick cognitive boost, take some caffeine, preferable green tea with theanine.

It's hard for me to fall asleep. I haven't cracked it yet how to do it perfectly. What helps: view the problem as improving your likelihood to sleep. Before I viewed the problem as falling asleep 100% of the time, which is a really defeating view to have when I can't fall asleep. Sleep tips that help me: 1. meditation: still experimenting with body-scan vs. breath meditation, they both help but have different effects…

"It's hard for me to fall asleep. I haven't cracked it yet how to do it perfectly. What helps: view the problem as improving your likelihood to sleep. Before I viewed the problem as falling asleep 100% of the time, which is a really defeating view to have when I can't fall asleep."

I did not respond to your sibling comment who speaks of anxiety. It sounds like a real pathology and something I have no business generalizing about.

You, however, mention no such thing so I am emboldened to encourage you to exercise - something not mentioned in your list.

I would experiment with both walking for 2-3 hours (on a day off, presumably) and also a 1.5 to 2 hour intense weightlifting workout (primarily focused on your thighs/legs[1][2], since they are the biggest muscles.

I'm not saying to do these things on the same day, just that they are both good candidates for an exercise activity which could influence your ability to go to sleep.

I like your list - especially getting out in the sun early and setting your circadian rhythms, but your list strikes me as it would somebody putting special air filters in their car when they've never taken it in for an oil change. Only reach for the specialized optimizations when you've exhausted the major factors.

[1] which implies squats and deadlifts, although a real leg press (the kind you load with plates, not select weight from the stack) would also do the trick.

Re: Nootropics

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two more things you might try: * Melatonin -- get the low dose chewable kind from Trader Joes and take 30 minutes before you go to bed * Keep the bedroom cool and completely dark -- there is research the connects insomnia with warm body temperatures in some people ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18603220 )

You have to be careful with Melatonin, your body will produce less of it's own if you keep topping yourself up, which means diminished returns with continued use.

I tried melatonin and this was my experience. It also started giving me a headache if I forgot to take it or ran out, which is annoying.

Re: Nootropics

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can't be "so much more effective", otherwise the Air Force wouldn't give stims to pilots. And anyways, why not both?

Stims are for long missions and when getting sufficient sleep is not possible.

Exactly. The listed stimulants will solve a short-term need. But people here are looking for a long-term permanent solution that can be used every day.

Re: Nootropics

#130

I've been on (legally, with a prescription) Modafinil (4 straight days of nausea), Armodafinil (made me really sleepy), Dextroamphetamine (3 times including right now), Adderall (constantly felt sick), Adderall XR (even worse than Adderall), Ritalin SR (about the same as Adderall), Bupropion twice (Wellbutrin, no noticeable effect). Pretty much everything other than Dextroamphetamine either made me feel sick or stran…

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