Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

whydoeseverythingsuck.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 234 posts

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#201

Post by allenbrunson »

cookiecaper wrote: post #175
allenbrunson wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless, of course, you were a developer at Stac Electronics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stac_Electronics ... or one of the many other companies that produced something that Microsoft decided would be better if it was bundled with the OS. I'm not defending Apple here, but come on, be realistic.

Bundling something with the OS isn't wrong. Linux distributions come bundled with tons of software. Is that wrong? There are lots of competing softwares for Linux, usually only one for each purpose is included. You can still develop and sell a competing application, you'll just get less traction because people already get an application with similar functionality for free. Apple has killed off a whole class of develo…

did you read the linked article? i'm guessing not.

if all microsoft did was write a clone of stac's product and bundle it with the OS, then that would be questionable, but not too bad. But no, what Microsoft did was pretend they were interested in buying Stac, gained access to all their source code as part of their "due diligence," then "changed their minds" and created a nearly identical product "from scratch."

Stac was able to get the courts to agree that this was dirty pool, and it cost Microsoft over 80 million dollars.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#202

Post by vetinari »

lukev wrote: post #126
vetinari wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many another companies' browsers are there for iPhone/iPad? Exactly.

Uhh... http://www.opera.com/press/releases/2010/03/23_3/

http://my.opera.com/community/countup/

In other words: no, you can not use it. It is verboten.

Imagine what would happen, if Microsoft had veto over Lotus 123, Ami Pro, Netscape, Apache, Mozilla, etc.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#203

Post by rimantas »

krschultz wrote: post #191
rimantas wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about GM, but I have clang on my OS X right now and I can tell Xcode to use it. When you say "compiler" which comes up in people's mind first? I'd bet it's "WTF?".

What come's up in developers mind first? If you say Apple, even developers are going to talk about the iPhone, iPad or Macbook Pro before they get to any of that stuff. If you say compilers and they somehow get to LLVM, how is it an Apple project? Because they hired some devs? That started years before Apple got involved. Is RoR an EngineYard project because some guys at EY worked on it? Is linux a google project bec…

Where would be all these projects without Apple's involvement?

Why should I care, who started what?

In that case Adobe should be forever grateful to Jobs and Apple, because they helped them at the start, by suggesting business models and investing heavily while working on the project for LaserWriter and then creating the whole desktop publishing thing. Adobe's Illustrator has its root in the work on Postscript, which was initially developed for Apple's LaserWriter. Photoshop started as exclusively Mac product. Adobe's (originally Aldus') Pagemaker at the start also was developed with Postscript and Apple's Laserwriter in mind. By the same logic how is Flash a Adobe's product? Because they bought Macromedia?

  And I highly doubt people are going to get all the way down to clang.
What do you mean? It's open source: http://clang.llvm.org/

  They write bad software in general for other platforms.
Just like Flash player performs wonders on OS X and Linux, and Photoshop for OS X has very consistent UI with native controls.

  Did you read Webkit's last release?
What's about it?

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#204

Post by tptacek »

krschultz wrote: post #195
tptacek wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Microsoft did was in fact so much worse than what Apple is doing that the DOJ sued them for it and won. I think the reason for the vitriol on this particular issue is that Apple is doing something that computer geeks don't think is correct, and computer geeks can't handle it when people do things "wrong".

Your first statement can't be judged yet. If all Microsoft had ever done was the IE thing, they wouldn't have sued. They had a pattern of anti-competitive behavior and that was the most egregious and well documented example so the DOJ went with it. Apple over the last few years has been fairly anti-competitive, this won't push it over the edge but it is another straw on the camel's back. So lets look back in 10 years…

Being anticompetitive is not against the law.

Acting anticompetitively to support a monopoly is what is against the law.

If the DOJ is up on Apple in 10 years, it'll be because their policies from today are so successful that they come to absolutely dominate the market.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#205

Post by tptacek »

krschultz wrote: post #195
tptacek wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Microsoft did was in fact so much worse than what Apple is doing that the DOJ sued them for it and won. I think the reason for the vitriol on this particular issue is that Apple is doing something that computer geeks don't think is correct, and computer geeks can't handle it when people do things "wrong".

Your first statement can't be judged yet. If all Microsoft had ever done was the IE thing, they wouldn't have sued. They had a pattern of anti-competitive behavior and that was the most egregious and well documented example so the DOJ went with it. Apple over the last few years has been fairly anti-competitive, this won't push it over the edge but it is another straw on the camel's back. So lets look back in 10 years…

Being anticompetitive is not against the law.

Acting anticompetitively to support a monopoly is what is against the law.

If the DOJ is up on Apple in 10 years, it'll be because their policies from today are so successful that they come to absolutely dominate the market. In which case, it would have been practically actionable for them not to have served their shareholders by pursuing those policies.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#206

Post by kpanghmc »

commieneko wrote: post #184
kpanghmc wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. Just because it's legally within Apple's rights to do this, doesn't mean that we have to be happy about it.

No, you're missing the point, this discussion isn't about what we would like. This is about whether Apple is insane or within their rights to do what they did. There are lots of other discussions on this site about whether it's a good idea, or whether developer's should like it.

You can be both insane AND within your rights. Nobody is disputing the legality of what Apple is doing. What they are disputing is how stupid/insane/ridiculous Apple is by doing it.

Please feel free to cite some examples of people saying it's illegal for Apple to do this. You won't find any, because that's not the argument at hand. There's a difference between complaining about something and saying that it's illegal.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#207

Post by elblanco »

vegashacker wrote: post #33
tptacek wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm puzzled, since Apple has been shutting off fundamental techniques in computer science since day one. Today it's Flash compilers. Yesterday it was access to the filesystem, things that run in the background, etc.

Yes, denying filesystem access (well, raw filesystem access--Apple gives you access to the "Documents" directory, etc), may be offensive to some, but for me this falls under the category of "sure, it'd be nice if it did more, but I'm not gonna be mad about it." The TI-82 programmable calculator didn't allow me to reprogram my keys or to redefine the built-in math operations, but that didn't make me love that device a…

I'm guessing you don't know about http://www.ticalc.org/

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#208

Post by elblanco »

Vivtek wrote: post #99

You know, it just occurred to me that if Apple specifies the tools that may be used to develop applications for the iPhone, then all iPhone developers may legally be their employees for tax purposes....

You know that they'll need to pay at least minimum wage.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#209

Post by commieneko »

kpanghmc wrote: post #206
commieneko wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're missing the point, this discussion isn't about what we would like. This is about whether Apple is insane or within their rights to do what they did. There are lots of other discussions on this site about whether it's a good idea, or whether developer's should like it.

You can be both insane AND within your rights. Nobody is disputing the legality of what Apple is doing. What they are disputing is how stupid/insane/ridiculous Apple is by doing it. Please feel free to cite some examples of people saying it's illegal for Apple to do this. You won't find any, because that's not the argument at hand. There's a difference between complaining about something and saying that it's illegal.

Please feel free to cite where I said anyone was saying it was illegal. The closest thing I can find to that is where I said:

"It is acceptable for Apple to sell its hardware/software under any kind license that it wants to, as long as it isn't illegal."

I was a top level post in this thread, responding to the article. Go read the article and then go and read my top post. The topic here is "Is Apple Insane." (Answer: No. They have valid strategic business reasons for doing what they are doing.) and "Are these policies acceptable." (Answer: Certainly, what they are doing is not illegal, and appears to be working successfully for them.)

Do you have to like it? No. Do you have to put up with this awful, sorry treatment. No. You can take your development efforts elsewhere. Develop for Android or WindowsWhatever.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#210

Post by hartror »

ryanhuff wrote: post #170
aerique wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you don't want to jailbreak your phone there aren't many other stores to choose from for the iPhone, are there?

Why does that really matter? If I sold chocolate covered bagels, and I was the only chocolate covered bagel store in town, do I have to serve you? Or, if you wanted to open your own chocolate covered bagel store in the only mall within 30 miles, does the mall operator have to lease you space? As a developer, I find the situation painful, but I think Apple views the appstore as their mall, and they want to control the…

Sure they can do what they like on the iPhone (within the grounds of the law) but we don't have to like it.

And how does this change have anything to do with customer experience when they already vet customer experience when the app is submitted?

Post reply on HN