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Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

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Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#221

Post by saynsedit »

Practicality wrote: post #53
saynsedit wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, Americans sleep when they hear 90% of drone attack deaths are civilians: https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/the-assassination-comp... But they are wide awake and outraged when Snowden's ostensible act of espionage has caused an enormous amount of public good and technological innovation. It's not really the American's fault. We hear few of their real voices. It's the media that speaks the loudest.

Who are these generic Americans that think that Snowden should be condemned? Everyone American I know is very grateful for what he did. And I know quite a few. I've only ever heard official policy statements condemning him. I am not even really sure those stating such policy agree with what they are saying (at a personal level).

I roughly agree with you in that I think the "Snowden is in the wrong" perspective is overrepresented in the media. That's what I meant by "it's not their fault." I'd bet the public on average is less extreme in judging Snowden.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#222

Post by ScottBurson »

tptacek wrote: post #190
dragonwriter wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is it that the US can prevent Snowden from boarding a plane in Moscow? The US can't prevent Snowden from boarding a plan in Moscow. (Well, I mean, there are all kinds of means by which it might attempt to do so, but no one in this thread has suggested that they would be likely to use them.) It can, and would be far more likely to, OTOH, use its influence to a prevent a plane from Moscow from reaching Ecuador wi…

How would the US even know who was on a flight from Moscow? If you believe Assange, the reason for the Morales incident was that Assange leaked false information to make that happen. Furthermore, what does any of this have to do with Snowden's suspended passport? The passport isn't what's keeping him in Russia. I think the two plausible things that might be are: (1) Snowden, (2) Russia. You think there's a third? Can…

If Obama were to pardon Snowden, and the US reinstate his passport, I can't see Putin keeping him in Russia. Why would he do that? As long as Snowden is a thorn in the NSA's side, Putin is clearly glad to have him, but a pardon would neutralize the benefit. It's not even like he could trade Snowden for some Russian spies; what sense would that make? The US intelligence community does not think of Snowden as someone they want back on American soil, except maybe to kill him.

I found an interesting Assange interview on the Morales incident [0]. The whole thing is worth reading, but let me just quote one bit:

Portugal, Spain and France closed their airspace. Some other things happened. Some preemptive extradition requests were sent out, for example, to Iceland, which we got hold of and published. So there was — the U.S. was pressuring countries where flights might go through or land or refuel. And as a result of that operation, then it became clear that in fact it was too dangerous to — at that moment, at least, to take any flight out of Moscow. And this is what then led to his eventual asylum. It wasn’t just the removal of the passport, which removed his ability to use commercial flights. It was that the U.S. was closing airspace and acting in a manner where you would have to assume that they — you know, if a flight went past the United States — not over U.S. territory, but past the United States — there might be some kind of interdiction.

Assange goes on to suggest that Russia had their hands forced by the US Government's willingness to pull strings to catch Snowden, and by the willingness of Western Europe -- France, Portugal, and Spain, at least -- to roll over. This put Putin in the position of either granting Snowden's asylum request or looking like another US patsy. Well, the last thing Putin would ever do is look weak. (I suspect Putin is not really too unhappy to make sure Snowden stays alive.)

Anyway, although Putin's cooperation is clearly necessary, the primary force keeping Snowden in Russia is, and has always been, the US Government.

[0] http://www.democracynow.org/2015/5/28/assange_on_the_untold_...

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#223

Post by dtornabene »

dragonwriter wrote: post #200
tptacek wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I addressed this downthread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12535114 I think both sides are spinning. It's clear to me how the House Report lawyers Snowden's training history, but where you see Gellman rebutting a House Report claim that no bone fractures were involved in Snowden's separation from the army, I see Gellman failing to acknowledge that a tibial stress fractures are a common medical diagnosis for "s…

> I see Gellman failing to acknowledge that a tibial stress fractures are a common medical diagnosis for "shin splints". Even if "shin splints" weren't the common name for a different and lesser less severe diagnosis, those wouldn't be equivalent. The House report would still be dishonest in calling Snowden a liar for a statement that is completely accurate. And Gellman would still be completely dishonest (even with…

Am I wrong for seeing this ultimately as spliting hairs here? This whole argument seems.....unecessary. What is gained by being this parsimonious with how his legs were damaged?

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#224

Post by dtornabene »

tedunangst wrote: post #176
tptacek wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you better explain what you're trying to say here? How is it that the US can prevent Snowden from boarding a plane in Moscow?

They use the HAARP installation to control the weather and cause a catastrophic lightning strike on his plane. That's why he can't go outside.

What do you get out of these comments? There was a time when these were downvoted out of existence, not merely slightly grayed. I'm not particularly swayed by your technical competence either. I'd be willing to bet as well that if I downloaded your comment history I'd find at least half of your comments are snark like this.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#225

Post by tptacek »

ScottBurson wrote: post #222
tptacek wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would the US even know who was on a flight from Moscow? If you believe Assange, the reason for the Morales incident was that Assange leaked false information to make that happen. Furthermore, what does any of this have to do with Snowden's suspended passport? The passport isn't what's keeping him in Russia. I think the two plausible things that might be are: (1) Snowden, (2) Russia. You think there's a third? Can…

If Obama were to pardon Snowden, and the US reinstate his passport, I can't see Putin keeping him in Russia. Why would he do that? As long as Snowden is a thorn in the NSA's side, Putin is clearly glad to have him, but a pardon would neutralize the benefit. It's not even like he could trade Snowden for some Russian spies; what sense would that make? The US intelligence community does not think of Snowden as someone t…

We're not talking about why Snowden isn't in the US. It's clear: the reason he's not here is that if he sets foot on American soil he will be arrested and prosecuted.

We're talking about why, of all the places he could be in the world, he's in Russia --- and not Ecuador, where he claims he intended to go.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#226

Post by tedunangst »

dtornabene wrote: post #224
tedunangst wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They use the HAARP installation to control the weather and cause a catastrophic lightning strike on his plane. That's why he can't go outside.

What do you get out of these comments? There was a time when these were downvoted out of existence, not merely slightly grayed. I'm not particularly swayed by your technical competence either. I'd be willing to bet as well that if I downloaded your comment history I'd find at least half of your comments are snark like this.

Some people take things too seriously. I have little control over how they vote.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#228

Post by zeveb »

kafkaesq wrote: post #139
zeveb wrote: post #2

An opposing view: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/... And the unanimous, bipartisan report of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence: http://intelligence.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?Docum...

Aside from the fact that the report makes no mention of the crimes Snowden exposed (as if the American public were too dumb to notice, or care) -- would you care to comment on any of the apparently quite egregiously misleading assertions it makes? Questioning his lower leg fractures or his GED, in particular, smacks of birtherism. https://tcf.org/content/commentary/house-intelligence-commit...

> Questioning his lower leg fractures or his GED, in particular, smacks of birtherism.

You mean these statements? 'He claimed to have left Army basic training because of broken legs when in fact he washed out because of shin splints. He claimed to have obtained a high school degree equivalent when in fact he never did.'

They go to Snowden's credibility (or complete lack thereof). Presumably the full report (an unclassified version of which has not yet been released) goes into details.

Regarding his stress fractures, he made it sound as though he was left a temporary cripple; shin splints aren't that big a deal and plenty of people heal up and complete basic training after having them.

Right now, one of Snowden's allies claims Snowden got a GED; the House Committee claims he did not get a high school degree equivalent. I'll trust the House Committee until the report is released.

For now, I see someone who claimed to have mono, who claimed to have epilepsy, who claimed to have washed out of basic training due to broken legs (leaving 'on crutches,' which may be technically true but misleading), who claimed to have all sorts of evidence of illegal actions, not one of whose claims of illegal actions has been borne out, yet who also claims to have released evidence of legal activity to adversary state. His trustworthiness rating looks incredibly low.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#229

Post by dragonwriter »

tptacek wrote: post #208
dragonwriter wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How would the US even know who was on a flight from Moscow? The US has foreign intelligence services, utilizing both human and technical means, and they attempt to monitor movements of persons who are of concern to the US, with varying degrees of success. (The degree to which Snowden is still actively a concern to the US is a bit less clear.) > If you believe Assange I don't, particularly, but on this particular po…

The same logic suggests they could grab Snowden off the streets in Moscow.

> The same logic suggests they could grab Snowden off the streets in Moscow.

It actually doesn't, since the logic at issue is "they have shown both the capacity and the will to do this to planes they believe are carrying Snowden from Russia to South America in the past".

They clearly have not shown the capacity and will to grab Snowden off the street in the past.

Its certainly not impossible that they could, but its a different category of risk from something that they have demonstrated both the capacity and will to do against the specific target in the past.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#230

Post by tptacek »

dragonwriter wrote: post #229
tptacek wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same logic suggests they could grab Snowden off the streets in Moscow.

> The same logic suggests they could grab Snowden off the streets in Moscow. It actually doesn't, since the logic at issue is "they have shown both the capacity and the will to do this to planes they believe are carrying Snowden from Russia to South America in the past". They clearly have not shown the capacity and will to grab Snowden off the street in the past. Its certainly not impossible that they could, but its…

I'm comfortable with where we've landed if we've arrived at the three reasons for Snowden not leaving Russia being (1) Snowden's desire to remain in Russia, (2) Russia's unwillingness to let Snowden leave, and (3) the US's shadowy spy network detecting the specific flight he's on and diverting it to effect his capture.

I will note, with bemusement, that our shadowy spy network was unable to effect his capture when he was known to be in Hong Kong. We must have a gap in capabilities for the most westernized part of China.

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