Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal • Hacker News Board

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#101

Post by cmiles74 » Mon, Sep 19, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

RogtamBar wrote: post #16

He already has a medal, very likely. He revealed what everyone interested was already suspecting. The reason Russia shelters him is that he was working for them. It's a reward, and one they have to give out, otherwise no on smart would cooperate with them. If he wasn't a former Russian agent, it'd be better for them letting America make an example of him, because what would make US look worse than jailing for life so…

It's not at all clear to me why another country would have their agent publicly disclose his findings to journalists and newspapers before returning home to safety. IMHO, this makes zero sense.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#102

Post by tzs » Mon, Sep 19, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

peterkelly wrote: post #10

Another important question is whether or not the NSA should be pardoned for their illegal activity: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-nsa-idUSKBN0N... Or whether James Clapper deserves a pardon for committing perjury during a testimony to Congress: http://www.hasjamesclapperbeenindictedyet.com Edit: /s

It's not at all clear that Clapper committed perjury. He took an oath long before he testified at that hearing to not reveal certain secrets to unauthorized people, and that oath was backed by laws passed by Congress.

He also took an oath later to testify truthfully at that Congressional committee hearing.

When those oaths conflict, which one takes priority?

Note that due to the nature of Wyden's question, Clapper could not simply say that he could not answer and give as the reason for not answering that it would require revealing classified information, because that itself would strongly imply that the answer was "yes".

Also, didn't Wyden already know the answer to the question? I thought I read that the members of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (and also those of the corresponding House committee) knew about these programs. If so, then Clapper's answer (no matter what he said) would convey no relevant information to the Committee. At common law, that would rule out any possibility of it being perjury. I don't know if there is a similar exception in the relevant perjury statutes for Congressional testimony.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#103

Post by mark_l_watson » Mon, Sep 19, 2016, 5:41 PM UTC

A little off topic but: my wife and I saw Oliver Stone's movie "Snowdon" last night with some friends. Everyone really enjoyed it (great acting, fast paced story, basically a fun movie to watch - recommended!).

I think that Stone took some liberties with historical facts, but everyone else I was with didn't agree with my skepticism. In any case, I would recommend seeing the movie.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#104

Post by omginternets » Mon, Sep 19, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #89

omginternets wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Prove that I'm intellectually lazy. Snowden has a well-argued moral case for what he did. He demonstrably tried to minimize harm and maximize the positive impact of his disclosures. You give literally no reason for your condemnation (though in all fairness, your comment is likely to be rhetorical). More to the point, you will likely argue that he broke laws and cite some unspecified damage to the intelligence commun…

https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/52k179/edward_sno...

Interesting. I'll mull this over. Thank you.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#105

Post by maerF0x0 » Mon, Sep 19, 2016, 5:52 PM UTC

mark_l_watson wrote: post #103

A little off topic but: my wife and I saw Oliver Stone's movie "Snowdon" last night with some friends. Everyone really enjoyed it (great acting, fast paced story, basically a fun movie to watch - recommended!). I think that Stone took some liberties with historical facts, but everyone else I was with didn't agree with my skepticism. In any case, I would recommend seeing the movie.

"Snowden" was more story like, Citizen four more documentary like. Knowing that going in will help keep things in perspective. For me, I liked Citizen Four more, but think people should see both.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#106

Post by DougWebb » Mon, Sep 19, 2016, 5:53 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #98

peterkelly wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're correct in the legal sense, but there is also the moral/philosophical aspect to it. Here's what the US Declaration of Independence had to say on the matter: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." This is the moral/philosophical aspect. (I c…

The Declaration of Independence has no legal force.

Also, "all men" is referring specifically to white males, since at the time women were not treated equally and, you know, they had slavery back then.

It's important to keep in mind the spirit of these historical documents and how that spirit can be applied today, but it's also important to remember that these are imperfect documents from an imperfect time and that they can't be treated as gospel. Even the founding fathers believed that, which is why they built in mechanisms for updating the Constitution.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#107

Post by maerF0x0 » Mon, Sep 19, 2016, 5:55 PM UTC

I dont understand what a pardon or a medal will accomplish. At this point I would assume that the moment the US is aware of his location he would be snuffed out, as discretely as possible. Unsure if there are any verifiable marks that prove he's even still alive (like him sending signed messages or something?).

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#108

Post by freehunter » Mon, Sep 19, 2016, 5:57 PM UTC

mzw_mzw wrote: post #100

freehunter wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some things it's not worth arguing because the facts have already been well presented and at this point anyone arguing to the contrary has deliberately chosen to ignore those facts. Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya. Climate change is not real. Jet fuel can't melt steel beams. JFK was killed by a magic bullet. The Holocaust never happened. Snowden is a terrorist and a treasonous traitor. Does anyone really st…

>I would actually argue that it's not wasting time to insult them, it's wasting time arguing with them. That's exactly the attitude that brought us Donald Trump. If you mock and delegitimize people for long enough, they'll stop taking the system seriously and just give you the finger in any way they can.

No, it happens further back than that. If you pretend that all opinions are equally important, if you legitimize provably wrong opinions just for the sake of "teaching the controversy" or "hearing both sides of the argument", you teach people that it's okay to be ignorant, that it's okay to put their fingers in their ears and ignore the facts when they're presented.

Donald Trump is what happens when you tell someone "yes, it's okay for you to think the president is a Muslim from Kenya" and not challenge that opinion. Unless you seriously think we should continue to pretend that these are actually legitimate opinions to hold? If someone says "vaccines cause autism" and you show them the facts but they come back and say "but those facts were made up by so-called "scientists"!", what then? What's your next move? You've already proven them wrong, they've already ignored you.

Either you continue to listen to them, thereby legitimizing their point of view, or you say they're crazy and move on with your life. Because you can only argue with facts. If you argue with them, you're inherently accepting their opinion as fact. We need to foster the idea that it's not okay to ignore easily provable facts. Ignorance is not an option. We need to shut down Donald Trump and Jenny McCarthy as soon as they start talking, not hear them out like they're part of the conversation.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#109

Post by Cypher » Mon, Sep 19, 2016, 5:57 PM UTC

What good is a medal going to do? He needs to be president to sort this shit out.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#110

Post by DougWebb » Mon, Sep 19, 2016, 5:59 PM UTC

mark_l_watson wrote: post #103

A little off topic but: my wife and I saw Oliver Stone's movie "Snowdon" last night with some friends. Everyone really enjoyed it (great acting, fast paced story, basically a fun movie to watch - recommended!). I think that Stone took some liberties with historical facts, but everyone else I was with didn't agree with my skepticism. In any case, I would recommend seeing the movie.

Oliver Stone was on The Late Show last week, and he said that he's a storyteller not a historian, and that he couldn't tell the whole story in a two hour movie and make it entertaining without taking some liberties. However, he also said that Snowden saw the movie and approved of its overall accuracy, accounting for Stone's needs to make a movie.