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Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

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Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#11

Post by Practicality »

Sneakos wrote: post #7

One thing this article doesn't take into account is that the movie the author undoubtedly watched before writing this was full of inaccuracies, and had the purpose of establishing Snowden as a martyr or sorts. This is evident because rather than just prove their point, the author makes several attempts to make sure the reader knows that if you hold an opposing view, you are intellectually lazy and unable to cope with…

Don't use strawman arguments? That would silence 90% of the arguments on the internet!

(Honestly, I am seeing a general trend toward better arguing and less fallacious logic as time goes on, but you are absolutely right, the argument should not be based on a basic logical fallacy)

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#13

Post by probably_wrong »

zeveb wrote: post #2

An opposing view: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/... And the unanimous, bipartisan report of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence: http://intelligence.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?Docum...

I think the first article falls for the easiest of traps: it's a movie, not a documentary.

Every single movie "based on real events" is pretty much made up. Pointing to the differences between the movie and real life is (IMHO) a pointless exercise. More so when it's used then to justify a political position.

Put another way: as good as JFK is, I wouldn't put anyone in jail because of it.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#14

Post by watwatwatwat »

omginternets wrote: post #8
Sneakos wrote: post #7

One thing this article doesn't take into account is that the movie the author undoubtedly watched before writing this was full of inaccuracies, and had the purpose of establishing Snowden as a martyr or sorts. This is evident because rather than just prove their point, the author makes several attempts to make sure the reader knows that if you hold an opposing view, you are intellectually lazy and unable to cope with…

>don't make an article about how the opposing stance is only held by the weak minded. What if you really think that's the case? Screw it, I'll say it. I think anyone who condemns Snowden is intellectually lazy or has vested interests in NSA surveillance. I have yet to see a single cogent rebuttal of Snowden's moral case.

I condemn Snowden. Prove that I'm intellectually lazy.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#15

Post by grabcocque »

Thanks to Snowden, the US intelligence services are now able to do more bulk surveillance, and they do so on a sounder legal footing and with full political backing but minimal oversight.

None of this would have been possible without Snowden.

So, thanks, I guess.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#16

Post by RogtamBar »

He already has a medal, very likely.

He revealed what everyone interested was already suspecting. The reason Russia shelters him is that he was working for them. It's a reward, and one they have to give out, otherwise no on smart would cooperate with them.

If he wasn't a former Russian agent, it'd be better for them letting America make an example of him, because what would make US look worse than jailing for life someone who is widely considered a hero by a good fraction of population.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#17

Post by Sneakos »

omginternets wrote: post #8
Sneakos wrote: post #7

One thing this article doesn't take into account is that the movie the author undoubtedly watched before writing this was full of inaccuracies, and had the purpose of establishing Snowden as a martyr or sorts. This is evident because rather than just prove their point, the author makes several attempts to make sure the reader knows that if you hold an opposing view, you are intellectually lazy and unable to cope with…

>don't make an article about how the opposing stance is only held by the weak minded. What if you really think that's the case? Screw it, I'll say it. I think anyone who condemns Snowden is intellectually lazy or has vested interests in NSA surveillance. I have yet to see a single cogent rebuttal of Snowden's moral case.

You could waste time insulting them, or you could provide a case as to why you are right. What purpose does it serve to call them lazy?

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#18

Post by omginternets »

Sneakos wrote: post #17
omginternets wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>don't make an article about how the opposing stance is only held by the weak minded. What if you really think that's the case? Screw it, I'll say it. I think anyone who condemns Snowden is intellectually lazy or has vested interests in NSA surveillance. I have yet to see a single cogent rebuttal of Snowden's moral case.

You could waste time insulting them, or you could provide a case as to why you are right. What purpose does it serve to call them lazy?

That wasn't really my point, though I can see how I may have been unclear/provocative.

In any case, I think the article we're commenting upon makes the case better than I could. Opinions to to the contrary (from what I've seen) tout the damage (unquantified and unqualified) that was done to the intelligence community and gloss over the obvious wrongdoing on the part of the government. Further, I have yet to see a single article that both condemns Snowden while directly arguing against his moral case for whistleblowing.

But again, none of this was my point. My point is rather that I see no reason why such an opinion should invalidate or detract from a movie/article/whatever.

I interpreted the parent comment as saying "if you accuse anyone of intellectual laziness, that detracts from your work". I find this view problematic, especially when there's ample evidence of intellectual laziness: condemnation without addressing a well-argued moral case.

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#19

Post by bsparker »

A medal? I understand the importance of Snowden's revelations and I know he believes he did everything the only way it played out. But that doesn't mean he is above the law. Civil disobedience still implies civility and he should come to his day in court. We don't know what he's given Russia or China in order to remain on the run, even Glenn Greenwald admits that here, when discussing Snowden's "self preservation": https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/352213748917874688

Re: Don’t just pardon Edward Snowden; give the man a medal

#20

Post by nsxwolf »

probably_wrong wrote: post #13
zeveb wrote: post #2

An opposing view: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/... And the unanimous, bipartisan report of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence: http://intelligence.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?Docum...

I think the first article falls for the easiest of traps: it's a movie, not a documentary. Every single movie "based on real events" is pretty much made up. Pointing to the differences between the movie and real life is (IMHO) a pointless exercise. More so when it's used then to justify a political position. Put another way: as good as JFK is, I wouldn't put anyone in jail because of it.

Mitch Hedberg:

I like when they say a movie is inspired by a true story. That's kind of silly. "Hey, Mitch, did you hear that story about that lady who drove her car into the lake with her kids and they all drowned?" "Yeah, I did, and you know what - that inspires me to write a movie about a gorilla!"

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