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In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

politico.com

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Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#11

Post by merpnderp »

caseysoftware wrote: post #9

I think this is the key quote to all of this: "Instead, it has changed how the pie is split, with the losers—the workers who compete with immigrants, many of those being low-skilled Americans—sending a roughly $500 billion check annually to the winners. Those winners are primarily their employers. And the immigrants themselves come out ahead, too. Put bluntly, immigration turns out to be just another income redistrib…

I'm not sure I get his solution. "...massive new government programs to supervise a massive wealth redistribution totaling tens of billions of dollars" How? Is he thinking that high school dropouts will all of a sudden go back to school? Or just longer unemployment and more welfare, which are unhealthy for people to be on for extended periods.

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#12

Post by Animats »

This suggests a path to a solution - a higher minimum wage for immigrants. At the low end, this could be implemented by requiring 2x the minimum wage for anyone whose residency or citizenship hadn't been verified through E-verify. At the high end, we just need tougher enforcement of the H1-B visa pay rules.

To make this work, if you've been underpaid as a non-US person, you can file a complaint, and even if you're illegal in the US, that would get you a U visa, which allows up to four years residency. Winning the complaint would get the employee double pay retroactively plus a green card. That would encourage employees to file complaints, and would encourage employers to be much more careful about whom they hire.

California could try this on its own, and should.

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#13

Post by HarryHirsch »

feklar wrote: post #10

Microsoft quote in this article advocating H-1Bs is interesting, as they spent $90M USD to open a research center in Canada in order to avoid H-1Bs. When asked why they didn't expand their Redmond base for the new research center and make use of H-1B visas they gave an answer about 'needing to diversify geographically and reach out to hubs that can offer new talent' which I just read as 'wanting to pay lesser salarie…

Maybe there is much truth in the statement from Microsoft. The standard of living in Canada is not worse than in the US. And Canada's immigration system is point-based - if you meet the criteria (education, age, language &c) the equivalent of a green card is a certainty. In the US, on the other hand, most every job applicant must go through H1-B lottery, which opens up once a year, and it isn't guaranteed that the desired applicant will get a spot.

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#14

Post by CM30 »

Animats wrote: post #12

This suggests a path to a solution - a higher minimum wage for immigrants. At the low end, this could be implemented by requiring 2x the minimum wage for anyone whose residency or citizenship hadn't been verified through E-verify. At the high end, we just need tougher enforcement of the H1-B visa pay rules. To make this work, if you've been underpaid as a non-US person, you can file a complaint, and even if you're il…

It's a good idea, but there are a few issues that still need ironing out:

1. Quite a few immigrants don't know their rights, or what the minimum wage is. Maybe I'm off the mark here, maybe some documentation you have to sign/read to get your visa mentions it, I don't know. But I suspect in a lot of cases, immigrants are just believing they're being paid a fair wage, and don't bother to find out if they actually are.

So that probably needs to be addressed.

2. Quite a few people simply don't care, and hence wouldn't report it. If you've immigrated from a poor enough country, then just about any US wage is far higher than you'd ever get at home. Why rock the boat?

And so you'd need to get these people out of said mindset. Or at least, have better ways to check what people are being paid in these roles, even if the actual worker doesn't care.

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#15

Post by biocomputation »

Animats wrote: post #12

This suggests a path to a solution - a higher minimum wage for immigrants. At the low end, this could be implemented by requiring 2x the minimum wage for anyone whose residency or citizenship hadn't been verified through E-verify. At the high end, we just need tougher enforcement of the H1-B visa pay rules. To make this work, if you've been underpaid as a non-US person, you can file a complaint, and even if you're il…

>> California could try this on its own, and should.

Immigration is the exclusive purview of the Federal government.

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#16

Post by biocomputation »

feklar wrote: post #10

Microsoft quote in this article advocating H-1Bs is interesting, as they spent $90M USD to open a research center in Canada in order to avoid H-1Bs. When asked why they didn't expand their Redmond base for the new research center and make use of H-1B visas they gave an answer about 'needing to diversify geographically and reach out to hubs that can offer new talent' which I just read as 'wanting to pay lesser salarie…

H1-B is a socially destructive program that needs to end. Big companies, in tech and otherwise, use it to keep labor costs down and as another negotiating tool. Talk about having your cake and eating it too!

It's funny how all these huge companies that have billions in cash, and who don't pay their fair share of taxes, are always crying poor and wanting more subsidies from someone.

H1-B is effectively a subsidy provided by US workers to unfathomably rich, tax-dodging corporations.

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#18

Post by coldtea »

thescribe wrote: post #3

This may be the best article on immigration I have read in a long time. Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding, but why don't we use immigration as a knob just like we use interest rates or any other government tool. Too few jobs? Lower the quota. Too many unfilled jobs? Raise the quota. It seems really simple to me.

>but why don't we use immigration as a knob just like we use interest rates or any other government tool. Too few jobs? Lower the quota. Too many unfilled jobs? Raise the quota. It seems really simple to me.

That's exactly what nations do for legal immigration.

But for illegal immigration there's no knob.

(Well, no pleasant and easily controllable knob).

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#19

Post by coldtea »

amunicio wrote: post #7
jkot wrote: post #6

There is also third side in this story; people who jump through hoops to get legal option to work in US. We had to fill mountains of paper work, spend thousands of dollars, wait for years... But every illegal immigrant seems to have more rights than us.

How does every illegal immigrant have more rights than you? Mind to clarify?

They get to stay in the country, work, some welfare etc, but without having to go through the system in the same bureaucratic way.

Re: In the current immigration debate, neither side is revealing the whole picture

#20

Post by noobermin »

Animats wrote: post #12

This suggests a path to a solution - a higher minimum wage for immigrants. At the low end, this could be implemented by requiring 2x the minimum wage for anyone whose residency or citizenship hadn't been verified through E-verify. At the high end, we just need tougher enforcement of the H1-B visa pay rules. To make this work, if you've been underpaid as a non-US person, you can file a complaint, and even if you're il…

One thing, this would discourage immigrants to become citizens, as they most likely will take a pay cut once they become citizens. This might create a permanent class of non-citizen residents.
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