Live data from Hacker News

A statement on online course content and accessibility

news.berkeley.edu

71–80 of 101 posts

Re: A statement on online course content and accessibility

#71
post #7

Fyi ... a related (not duplicate) HN discussion from Feb 2015: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9039798 In both this case about UC Berkeley and the lawsuit against Harvard & MIT, the legal attacks seem very wrong. What I see is: - Scenario A: spend $X to release free courses that benefits most of humanity - Scenario B: spend $X+$Y to release free courses that also benefits the disabled population (The $Y is extra…

And yet libraries have to meet disability access requirements. If you don't have minimum standards for accessibility, you perpetuate a two-class system, and this is especially bad when it applies to learning — which disabled people can benefit disproportionately from. Using the legal system to achieve these ends appears to be the American Way so I won't comment on that.

> If you don't have minimum standards for accessibility, you perpetuate a two-class system

Reality is a multi-class system. It's always and everywhere going to be more difficult to get things done when one lacks a capacity which most people have (e.g. sight, hearing or mobility); it's always and everywhere going to be easier to get things done when one possesses a capacity which most people lack (e.g. intelligence, strength or wealthy parents).

Measures which aim to level the playing field really can't raise those who lack up: all they can do is lower those who have. But that leaves us all poorer in the end, because those who could have achieved did not.

Harrison Bergeron was a cautionary tale, not a guidebook.

Re: A statement on online course content and accessibility

#73

I feel like it's about time to ditch all that accessibility stuff and join forces to create a more human screen reader. Though sadly it will be a while until we will hear: "You are visiting Hacker News, in a simple look and without any images, it features a list of links to articles and a menu at the top. Do you want me to read the articles titles, continue with accessing the menu or a more detailed description of th…

>Though sadly it will be a while until we will hear: "You are visiting Hacker News..."

If you expect to accomplish that via a community effort to make tools for deaf people, you're likely right. But i bet we aren't that far away from "Hey alexa/siri/google, what are the top stories on hacker news right now?"

Re: A statement on online course content and accessibility

#74
Perhaps add a login and get people (crowdsource) to contribute transcripts/accessibility features until it is deemed OK for public release? I don't know how to incentivize people to contribute though - maybe add their names as credits in the video description?

Re: A statement on online course content and accessibility

#75
post #69
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Americans with Disabilities Act [...] explicitly bind society to inefficient resource allocation. Sure, that seems justifiable for commercial businesses but many find the ADA to be an ugly legal weapon for attacking free donations. The spiritual intentions of "free" should be exempted. If UC Berkeley used the viewing of those videos as a mandatory requirement to qualify for admissions into the school or required…

> Sure, that seems justifiable for commercial businesses but many find the ADA to be an ugly legal weapon for attacking free donations. The spiritual intentions of "free" should be exempted. I dispute labeling this program as a "donation". It's an official program run by a quasi-governmental institution that is supported by taxpayer dollars. Disabled people pay taxes in California, and yet cannot avail themselves of…

>I dispute labeling this program as a "donation".

It's a release of course videos that they don't charge for. Making free videos available for the public certainly isn't going to help UC Berkeley's $150 million budget deficit.[1] It's not going to make anybody rich. If any university wants to provide free videos to the public with no strings attached, I consider that a generous gesture on their part. I want us (society) to be generous in return. Therefore, lawsuits are the wrong tool for captioning videos for the disabled audience. (Oh btw, I know your school is losing money and may lay off some employees but about those free videos ... yeah we're suing you for that!)

>Disabled people pay taxes in California, and yet cannot avail themselves of this content that's ostensibly provided for the public benefit.

There seems to be a "accommodate-ADA-no-matter-what" principle that's present in many comments. We are not that inflexible. Disabled people may pay Federal taxes but we did not install multi-million chairlifts on Yosemite Half Dome (a Federal Park) so wheelchair bound people can experience the summit. The Yosemite Park entrance pass is $15 per car and we didn't all agree to make it $200 per car so that we can subsidize helicopters to take all disabled people to the summit for those who can't climb it on their own power. Yes, we do have wheelchair lifts for the buses running on the valley floor but we didn't make everything equal for all disabled tourists.

If a business has 14 employees or less, we also don't make them comply with ADA access. That exclusion is written into the ADA law.

The point is that there are are tradeoffs, limits, exceptions, and compromise to make ADA work. If a "14-employee threshold" seems like a reasonable exemption from ADA, let's make "freedom of spreading knowledge" another reasonable exemption. Don't punish institutions for providing free knowledge. Let's not disincentivize other institutions from releasing free videos just because they didn't cross every 't' and dot every 'i' to comply with ADA. Let's find another way to add captions and braille without the lawsuits.

[1]https://www.google.com/search?q=uc+berkeley+operating+defici...

Re: A statement on online course content and accessibility

#76
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet libraries have to meet disability access requirements. If you don't have minimum standards for accessibility, you perpetuate a two-class system, and this is especially bad when it applies to learning — which disabled people can benefit disproportionately from. Using the legal system to achieve these ends appears to be the American Way so I won't comment on that.

> If you don't have minimum standards for accessibility, you perpetuate a two-class system Reality is a multi-class system. It's always and everywhere going to be more difficult to get things done when one lacks a capacity which most people have (e.g. sight, hearing or mobility); it's always and everywhere going to be easier to get things done when one possesses a capacity which most people lack (e.g. intelligence, s…

What a hideous post. Lord of the Flies was also a cautionary tale.

Because, despite your "I'm alright Jack" attitude, it generally turns out that society is a better place for everybody when inequality is at its lowest and when you try to ameliorate the worst effects of survival of the fittest.

Nothing about mandating extra help to those who need it restricts the abilities of those who don't. You can still take the stairs, it'll be OK.

Re: A statement on online course content and accessibility

#77

Perhaps add a login and get people (crowdsource) to contribute transcripts/accessibility features until it is deemed OK for public release? I don't know how to incentivize people to contribute though - maybe add their names as credits in the video description?

Seems like early access could potentially be incentive enough, perhaps? I mean, it's a public service that I would think/hope many people would be willing to chip in their time for free (I mean, you take notes when you're in a class, anyway...the very act of writing down what you've heard is an important part of learning for many people). So, sign up for a class, get access while it happens if you agree to help with the transcription and captioning. Progressing to the next video requires either contributing to the transcription or signing off on it. YouTube has incredibly good tools for captioning; perhaps they can be convinced to work with UCB to enable this kind of system.

It would need some kind of percent complete count, or something, along with maybe a rating system where visitors who need those captions can report poor or confusing transcription.

Braille is harder; but, I would think most courses already have written course notes and materials, which can be read by screen readers. I'm not sure what to make of the mention of braille, here, actually. Are they expecting UCB to send out printed materials? That doesn't make sense, and goes beyond what websites are required to do by the ADA.

Re: A statement on online course content and accessibility

#78

Berkeley should just incorporate a non profit in another country, transfer the IP and serve it via there. Outside the jurisdiction of the DOJ.

Why would they do that? UCB is a public insitution, with a mandate to serve the public. They're not a torrent site trying to skirt the law.

While there are discussions to be had about how to move forward; I would hope the end result would be continuing to offer the free courses, while solving the accessibility problems, perhaps with the help of the communities they serve. I would be happy to contribute transcription and captioning to the courses that I take online; I transcribe and caption all of my videos on YouTube, religiously. It's not that big of a time cost, and I take notes when I'm taking a class, anyway.

I hope this will be viewed as an opportunity to (not necessarily in this order):

1. Improve accessibility tooling for these courses, particularly captioning videos.

2. Improve awareness of accessibility guidelines for websites and online materials.

3. Make all of these fantastic learning resources available to people with disabilities.

Re: A statement on online course content and accessibility

#79
post #9

Unfortunate to see this free content be lost. In the same line of thinking it is also sad that in this day and age there are not easy tools / systems to help transcode and make content ADA approved. (At least cost effective)

Not really directly relevant to this, but YouTube makes captioning videos as painless as I can possibly imagine it being, and provides incredible automated and manual tools for doing so. I caption all of my videos on YouTube because it's the right thing to do, and I would do it even if it were more painful than it is, but I specifically use YouTube for everything because they make it so easy to add good captions (they also allow you to download the captions which can be converted to other formats and such).

I don't know what kind of tools UCB could make available on their videos...but, the technology exists to community source the video captioning.

Re: A statement on online course content and accessibility

#80
The same forces caused Andrej Karpathy to have to take down his YouTube videos of his Stanford CS231n course on convolutional neural nets. [https://twitter.com/karpathy/status/727618058471112704] Fortunately, unofficial mirrors have surfaced.

It's not very expensive to do the basics of adding transcripts (for the deaf) and verbal descriptions of diagrams (for the blind). The reason the university didn't just do it seemed to combine departmental politics with ambivalence about undercutting their main product (in-person education) with a free online version in the first place.

Post reply on HN