Norway plans to cull more than two-thirds of its wolf population • Hacker News Board

Re: Norway plans to cull more than two-thirds of its wolf population

#31

Post by clumsysmurf » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 4:46 PM UTC

Sounds like a really bad idea

"A recent study in the journal Science, "Trophic Downgrading of Planet Earth," examines how the near disappearance of upper levels of the food chain—big cats, wolves, bison and great whales—has altered ecosystems around the world."

https://www.fastcoexist.com/1678282/humanitys-biggest-impact...

And more recently "... pups of predators in socially disrupted packs are more likely to prey on livestock."

http://www.publicnewsservice.org/2016-09-15/endangered-speci...

Re: Norway plans to cull more than two-thirds of its wolf population

#32

Post by digi_owl » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 4:47 PM UTC

smackay wrote: post #20

This decision is probably for political reasons in favour of two groups within Norway: hunters who probably want to shoot more deer and elk or perhaps moose and the Saami who get paid by the state based on the number of reindeer they have roaming the tundra in the mountains and the north of the country. Not sure if the latter is still the case. When I last visited the far north the effects of overgrazing by reindeer…

I don't think the wolf has ever been a problem up north.

Nah, this is a local issue in the counties near Oslo.

The decision is not even made centrally, but left to the counties.

You can bet your behind that they were leaned on heavily by local farmers.

Re: Norway plans to cull more than two-thirds of its wolf population

#33

Post by digi_owl » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 4:52 PM UTC

known wrote: post #7

Highly deplorable :( Norway is a wealthy country; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_wealth_fund#Largest_...

On paper yes, in reality no. There is a high chance of basically trashing the national economy of that is spent, depending on what effect it would have on the exchange rate etc.

Re: Norway plans to cull more than two-thirds of its wolf population

#34

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 4:56 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Norway plans to cull more than two-thirds of its wolf population

#35

Post by freekh » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

ObeyTheGuts wrote: post #29

2trill2spill wrote: post #14

It's amazing how low the wolf population is in Norway, 68 wolfs in the entire country! While here in Minnesota we have nearly 2,300 wolfs across 439 wolf packs mid winter 2016[1]. But that puts them only at 3.2 wolves per 100 km2 of occupied range[2]. That must make the wolf density and total range in Norway absurdly low, why would they "cull" the wolfs when there are so few. Plus the wolfs are not really a problem h…

dude norway has no forests, land is all steap mountains fragmented by fjords, only in southeast there is little suitable wolf land, nothing compared to minnesota.

I don't think you have been to Norway? A hundred years ago Norway was significant exporter of timber (and no: we didn't cut it all down). Related fun fact: the Christmas tree at traflgar square is donated by Oslo (the capital of Norway) though I think this is a token of gratitude for helping us out during WWII, it's not by coincidence that it's a tree.

Re: Norway plans to cull more than two-thirds of its wolf population

#36

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

clumsysmurf wrote: post #31

Sounds like a really bad idea "A recent study in the journal Science, "Trophic Downgrading of Planet Earth," examines how the near disappearance of upper levels of the food chain—big cats, wolves, bison and great whales—has altered ecosystems around the world." https://www.fastcoexist.com/1678282/humanitys-biggest-impact... And more recently "... pups of predators in socially disrupted packs are more likely to prey o…

[deleted]

Re: Norway plans to cull more than two-thirds of its wolf population

#37

Post by kwhitefoot » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 5:20 PM UTC

digi_owl wrote: post #33

known wrote: post #7

Highly deplorable :( Norway is a wealthy country; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_wealth_fund#Largest_...

On paper yes, in reality no. There is a high chance of basically trashing the national economy of that is spent, depending on what effect it would have on the exchange rate etc.

Which is why the government of Norway is careful about how much they spend.

Re: Norway plans to cull more than two-thirds of its wolf population

#38

Post by jomamaxx » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 5:44 PM UTC

dazzawazza wrote: post #10

For thousands of years humans have farmed with wolves near by. The Japanese used to use Akita to fend off wolves who are looking for the easiest, lowest risk source of calories. Seems to me that the Norwegians should ask the Sami people of the region how they lived with wolves for so long while herding reindeer and maybe look at using the Lapphund to guard their herds. Of course that may mean they would have to go ou…

The Sami people would have been about 100K population.

Norway now is almost 100x that.

+ Roads, airports, farms, domesticated animals etc.

I don't know specifically about the Sami, but the aboriginals in most places did not domesticate animals or have any serious agrarian practices.

That said, I can't understand the logic behind this cull.

Re: Norway plans to cull more than two-thirds of its wolf population

#39

Post by marvin » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 6:08 PM UTC

2trill2spill wrote: post #14

It's amazing how low the wolf population is in Norway, 68 wolfs in the entire country! While here in Minnesota we have nearly 2,300 wolfs across 439 wolf packs mid winter 2016[1]. But that puts them only at 3.2 wolves per 100 km2 of occupied range[2]. That must make the wolf density and total range in Norway absurdly low, why would they "cull" the wolfs when there are so few. Plus the wolfs are not really a problem h…

Most farmers in East Norway don't believe the official numbers on the wolf population, due to personal experiences with seeing wolves, and having animals killed by wolves.

I'm curious myself; I've heard separate stories of people in different regions seeing large packs of wolves (10-20 individuals) and also observing wolves crossing the road at night, etc. It would be nice to know more about how the official count as been made, because I'm skeptical that there are less than 70 wolves in the entire country. Large areas of Eastern Norway are largely uninhabited, and it doesn't really make sense that there are so many observations in populated areas.

Re: Norway plans to cull more than two-thirds of its wolf population

#40

Post by kqr » Sat, Sep 17, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

dazzawazza wrote: post #10

For thousands of years humans have farmed with wolves near by. The Japanese used to use Akita to fend off wolves who are looking for the easiest, lowest risk source of calories. Seems to me that the Norwegians should ask the Sami people of the region how they lived with wolves for so long while herding reindeer and maybe look at using the Lapphund to guard their herds. Of course that may mean they would have to go ou…

> […] positive effect on the wolves teaching them that they get shot if they go near the sheep. Culls don't teach the wolf packs anything.

Do canines really learn that fast? I have always imagined that it takes verbal communication of some kind to pass on complicated knowledge to the next generation, and most knowledge canines possess is evolutionarily passed on, which is a really frickin' slow process unless you intentionally breed them one way or the other.