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The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

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Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#121
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wonders of missing context :) Its not mission critical or life-threatening. I know this, my team knows this, but someone up in the food chain is going to want blood for any serious outage. I'm perfectly happy to shed blood for my team and take the crap, but I need something. Even if its a text back: "Dangling on mountain. Will check email on Monday" - then I can tell my higher-ups it won't be fixed till Monday, t…

I think this attitude is the problem. If you pay me for 40 hours of work, I owe you 40 hours of work. That is all. If you want me to be on call, pay me to be on call. If my code blows up, I don't owe you 45 hours of work for 40 hours of pay. If my code blows up, it's because you haven't managed testing and quality assurance properly. I shouldn't be able to get shitty code into production — that's why you're the manag…

I think at the very least we can agree that it is the employee's job to inform their superiors of feature creep, looming technical debt, and whatever bad practices they see.

If you're fixing bugs in production because your manager hasn't addressed longstanding technical debt, then yes, you shouldn't feel bad about the bugs that slipped through against your advice. In that case, I think your indignation at working extra hours without getting paid would be justified.

Ideally, we would do proper estimates upfront without being pushed to grossly underestimate features because so-and-so thinks it should only take a few minutes.

Pushy managers and bad employees are made for each other. It's a feedback loop.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#122
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Promotions are a myth told to people to get them to work harder, aren't they? They're quite rare and usually come with moderate increments. Whereas the best way to increase your salary is to move jobs. Salary is only vaguely linked to job title. (I was once promoted en passant , when my first employer wished to inflate the number of Senior Developers assigned to a consulting proposal...)

I've never seen en passant used outside of chess before. It makes sense though, so long as he didn't capture you afterward.

What’s even better is that he did in a reply to a comment by _ThePawnBreak_.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think @grecy was pretty clear, but FWIW, here's my interpretation: the system is either important enough to disturb employees after hours or it isn't. If it is, you need to define and implement a support protocol: on-call rotations, procedures, etc. If it isn't important enough to organize support for it, then it isn't important enough and you should not expect anyone to justify being off work and off duty.

Okay, I see. I will talk to my team on Monday and ask their opinion. For the record, I don't agree that life is as black and white as the first sentence. There are plenty of symptoms which "could" be serious issues, but after a phone call I know can be safely ignored.

I appreciate your reply - thanks.

I honestly would like to hear the thoughts of your team if you are happy to reply here please.

In all honesty - you're right, I'm not very flexible. Either you're paying me to be on call and I'll answer my phone at 3am on a Sunday, or you're not.

Let's flip it around so you see my point of view. Either I stick to the employment contract and ask you to pay me my salary this week, or for reasons completely outside your control, I expect you to pay me $salary+$X, because I said so. If you say no, I view you as inflexible.

See my point?

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others are recording the need for a real on-call rotation, so I'll just jump into this: >Aside from that, I expect 40 hours of "quality" braintime from you, and I don't really care where or when those hours occur, as long as you're collaborating with the team when they need you. There is no way you are getting 40 hours of "quality brain time" from anyone. If you believe you are, you don't know what "quality brain tim…

Before I dive into my comment, let me just state that I agree with you on the impossibility of delivering 40 hours of "quality brain time" and on the stupidity of measuring productivity in "butt-in-chair hours". That said, I always get worried whenever someone starts advocating for getting rid of 40-hour work week without a very clear idea of how to replace it in concrete terms. See, maybe I'm cynical, but it seems t…

I actually have the same opinion as you on "unlimited vacation". I'd rather know what the company explicitly allows and use it guilt-free than have to ask myself every time I take time off, "Wait, I mean, I know I'm technically allowed to do this, but am I allowed?" People who go in to companies like that guns blazing, oblivious to social matters like colleague perception, are usually destroyed pretty quickly.

So, I can definitely see where your concern arises. I don't want to make it seem like you should do any quantity work that the employer throws your way. There should be a basically agreed-upon range of value delivered in person-week units; the employer should expect to get some value within that range per week, and the employee should expect to provide it on an ongoing basis. This value range is something that is going to be negotiated between employee and employer and the only way to get a realistic feel for it is to undertake a relationship and see where you land. By accepting the standard timeframe for value evaluation to week-units, it matters much less whether you were in your chair from 2pm-4pm all 5 days of the work week. It just matters that you got your work done.

I don't have an exact way to quantify it, because again, in knowledge work, employee productivity isn't really calculable by a simple equation. It's really just about whether the company feels adequate progress is being made and whether the employee feels that his work-life balance isn't falling apart. As long as both of these things are synchronized on an individual basis, there is no problem and no hard rule.

It's hard to get to this because as you said, an employer feels that they're not getting their money's worth if there isn't 40 hours on the clock. However, that's based on the antiquated model of production where time-at-station pulling levers was directly correlated to the value provided to the company. In a factory / assembly line context, that approach still makes sense. For knowledge workers who depend on creativity, like software developers, it doesn't -- it's not an accurate way to measure performance. The challenge for us is in educating employers to view knowledge workers appropriately.

On HN we're all probably familiar with PG's Maker's Schedule essay. I believe that schedule arises naturally because our brain is trying to self-optimize and do work in the most productivity time period, which is usually overnight when there are minimal interruptions. We should all be free to engage with that. It will result in both happier employees and superior work product.

Finally, I think there's a more basic component at play here that I don't actually think we'll overcome anytime soon. The workweek is entrenched into American lifestyle now. People are taught to expect a 9-5 and to be suspicious of those that don't have one. People are taught that colleagues should all go hang out in a big office building for 1/3rd of the day 5 days per week. This is a common expectation even if it's unsuited for modern work. Most people, even most knowledge workers, like this arrangement and don't want it to change. The social costs of doing something unusual with your work day can be substantial, especially if you're in the midst of a period of financial difficulty. I don't think that will change any time soon and I don't know that it'd be a net social good if it did.

However, there are companies that accommodate people that want to work differently. They can be found with some degree of discretion and specific searching.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#125
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it really matter? Since he put in his notice, I don't think he'd have worked 80 hour weeks if he didn't feel he had to. Either way, he feels pressured to do it and he is now out from under that pressure.

It does matter - we can fix self inflicted wounds a little easier than fix the culture of an organisation.

A little of both, actually. There was never a requirement to work more than 40 hours. In fact, last Friday I talked about how I'd probably work through the weekend to make the deadlines they set for the beginning of this week. They took pity on me and said I shouldn't even be checking my email over the weekend. I reluctantly agreed, and didn't work on the projects. But, guess who everyone was angry with come early this week for not having the deliverables to the clients?

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#126
post #3

Just put in my two week's notice yesterday. I've been putting in a stupid amount of hours (80+) while my colleagues in other departments barely hit the 40 hour mark. This is a good omen.

How do you get to the stage where you're putting that many hours in? Does it start off just staying late one night and then turns into more nights and then every day? Or is it like that from day one trying to prove yourself?

It started off innocently enough. "I'll work just a few more hours on this project, because once these changes are in place, I'm going to save so much time when the client changes their mind again." That quickly turned into the normal amount of work on a daily basis, and then weekends started getting gobbled up. I also knew that I had a baby on the way, and I thought I'd put in yet more hours then, so now wouldn't be so bad. Now has come, and it is far worse than I could have imagines.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or four weeks' vacation in a jurisdiction with humane labour practices

I agree that 28 days is reasonable while 14 isn't really. But if we start calling 14 "inhumane", then we are in danger of losing our grip on what what inhumanity is. Which is to lose our grip on our moral compass.

"inhumane relative to the developed world", then.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#128

Let me come in with a contradictory opinion especially on the overtime. You don't work for your current salary, you work for your next one. If you are one of those 9 to 5 ers, don't complain when the guy working 60 hours and more gets that promotion over you. The higher up the ladder you go, the more that will be required of you. Also, startups or high paying jobs will require more of you since you will get getting m…

It depends - is the promotion worth it? Is it worth working 60 hours a week? There's more to life than work.

Also, if you get a reputation as a 60 hour worker that's going to be your expectation. After promotion that's going to be the expected schedule. The promotion after that will be the same. The point is you're not just working 60 until the next promotion. You'll probably end up working 60 for the next 10-20 years.

If that's ok with you, and that's what you want, then that's fine.

Another kicker: a company can fire you at pretty much any time and for any reason. Why pour yourself into an enterprise that can toss you aside at any moment?

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#129
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this attitude is the problem. If you pay me for 40 hours of work, I owe you 40 hours of work. That is all. If you want me to be on call, pay me to be on call. If my code blows up, I don't owe you 45 hours of work for 40 hours of pay. If my code blows up, it's because you haven't managed testing and quality assurance properly. I shouldn't be able to get shitty code into production — that's why you're the manag…

I think at the very least we can agree that it is the employee's job to inform their superiors of feature creep, looming technical debt, and whatever bad practices they see. If you're fixing bugs in production because your manager hasn't addressed longstanding technical debt, then yes, you shouldn't feel bad about the bugs that slipped through against your advice. In that case, I think your indignation at working ext…

"I think at the very least we can agree that it is the employee's job to inform their superiors of feature creep, looming technical debt, and whatever bad practices they see. "

Yes, please yes. This is really where 1-1s come into their own. I can ask directly - is there any part of the code you're working on that truly sucks, and is going to break? I don't care who wrote it or when (it was probably me), I just need to know, so I can put it in the backlog

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others are recording the need for a real on-call rotation, so I'll just jump into this: >Aside from that, I expect 40 hours of "quality" braintime from you, and I don't really care where or when those hours occur, as long as you're collaborating with the team when they need you. There is no way you are getting 40 hours of "quality brain time" from anyone. If you believe you are, you don't know what "quality brain tim…

Before I dive into my comment, let me just state that I agree with you on the impossibility of delivering 40 hours of "quality brain time" and on the stupidity of measuring productivity in "butt-in-chair hours". That said, I always get worried whenever someone starts advocating for getting rid of 40-hour work week without a very clear idea of how to replace it in concrete terms. See, maybe I'm cynical, but it seems t…

> Whether we like it or not, there is a power imbalance between workers and employers and it's usually in favor of employers.

I wanted to chime in and mention this balance varies greatly by country. I've worked in Canada, Australia, USA for years, so has my brother.

I personally feel in Australia the balance is clearly in favor of the employee, in Canada it's over to the Employer and in the USA it's shockingly (scarily) in favor of the Employer.

After 7 years in the USA and Canada my brother went back to Australia. One month in I asked him what the most shocking thing was - what do you think he said? Going from years of -30C winter to +40C summer? Driving on the wrong side of the road? food? accents? Nope.

In Australia, you are a valued person at work, rather than a slave. I think that says a lot.

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