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Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

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Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#241

It's like the penny-arcade d kwolf joke over again. Or the spiderwoman crawling pose. From the article feels like they were joking about everyone getting raped, including men. Anyway, rape is a serious crime, no doubt about that and the joke might have crossed a line. But were do we draw a line by getting offended or not? These lines are pushed further out every time and sometimes limiting freedoms. Also, men can be…

Why not just hold your tongue instead of saying a joke about rape? Doesn't really seem like that much of a limitation of your freedom, and it might really have a positive impact on someone who has been through a terrible and traumatic experience. Doesn't really seem like not joking about rape is pushing the line out too far.

The article doesn't say she was a victim of rape, or not.

I can understand victims feeling violated by rape jokes. That's no laughing matter.

Rape jokes aren't nice and can be rude. I don't want tell rape jokes and neither should anyone, but context does matter.

Penny-Arcade's d__kwolf joke (which I was referring to) wasn't actually a rape joke. The act of rape was just a part of it. It was the crime that was overlooked by the hero because he already finished a quest not related to the crime. Even with the plea of the people, he didn't care about the crime and did nothing to help. And it still was considered offensive because having a reference to rape, whilst it wasn't promoting it in any shape or form. For me it wasn't a rape joke, because the main target of the joke wasn't the rape, but the behavior of the main character ignoring people in need because of his selfish acts. This is actually a common thing when you play an RPG games, where you have to decide which quests you're going to take. And on the top of that the person pleading for help was an actually a man. So it wasn't even painting women as being rape victims.

Now the joke in this issue was about rape. Rape was the main theme, but there was no actual target. There was no reference to gender. The joke was gender neutral. It was still in bad taste and shouldn't have been said. But in the end it was picked up by one individual and made it into a big issue. This is the problem of painting the act of rape to be against just one gender. I agree there are more rape victims of women then men. But rape is gender neutral. Everyone can be a rape victim regardless of their gender.

I'm not a promoting rape jokes.

I'm against harsh punishments for things that clearly are minor offences, like a joke with no actual target.

Also read my other reply. I hope that clarifies my stand on this.

Rape jokes are bad. Harsh punishments for a bad jokes are worse.

These issues just widen the gap between genders and not close it.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#242
post #239
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be. What is sold legally bu unacceptable to discuss in the workplace?

errr sex toys?

But why should that be inappropriate to discuss?

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#243
post #44

Reading stuff like this always feels weird to me. I'm the founder of a 30+ year company and, to my knowledge, this has never happened at my company. It's possible it happened and no one told me, but given my position, I would think it would eventually come around to me (I'm the COO now). I have to wonder if behavior like this follows from bad leadership. I'm not saying Tim Cook, given the case of Apple, but middle ma…

Would you fire a person for a joke like this?

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you feel an impulse to talk or joke about physical appearance, politics, religion, sex, gender, rape, racial issues, nationality/ethnicity, etc., just hold your tongue! Going to such extremes to guarantee never offending anyone is a great way to wind up unhappy and alone at work. It's fine if that's what you want - when I don't like talking to my coworkers in the first place I happily implement that strategy. Ch…

Don't see how it's going to extremes. I sit at a table with 6 others and manage a team of 8, have followed this for years and enjoy constant conversations and have good relationships with all my co-workers. Maybe I just have a richer personal life than others, and have plenty of other things to talk about?

OK, sorry but this part...

This was such a self-promoting bs.

Richer life then others? You can't be serious! This is literally offensive to others. You just contradicted yourself right here.

Good job!

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#245
post #44

Reading stuff like this always feels weird to me. I'm the founder of a 30+ year company and, to my knowledge, this has never happened at my company. It's possible it happened and no one told me, but given my position, I would think it would eventually come around to me (I'm the COO now). I have to wonder if behavior like this follows from bad leadership. I'm not saying Tim Cook, given the case of Apple, but middle ma…

The actual transcript of the discussion that "Danielle" objected to has been posted in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12503157 I'd be interested to understand your take on this situation. Does it really warrant more than the apology that was already provided? It sure seems to me from the transcript that "Danielle" was going out of her way to find offense. ("Danielle" since not her real name)

I agree. From the TFA it seemed like it would be way worse than that. To me, that doesn't rise to the level of creating a hostile work environment.

One thing we don't know about Person4: what led up to this? Was it the last straw? Was it the first incident (she alleges it's not in the transcript, but who knows)?

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#246
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My take away from this is that if something so innocuous can be considered so offensive it's much easier to avoid casual conversations with women at work entirely.

If you think it's hard to avoid being sexist to women, just imagine how hard it is to be one and have to deal with this every day for their entire life!

If someone is offended that often, maybe they are the problem and not everyone else.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#247
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think it's hard to avoid being sexist to women, just imagine how hard it is to be one and have to deal with this every day for their entire life!

If you think someone asking you to smile is a hardship then you don't have a hard life at all.

The "smile" factor is one of many, many, many examples of sexism that women put up with every day.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#248

Is it just me or is this ultra-political correctness a new and intresting phenomenon? I'm really interested to watch where it's all going. Pretty much all jokes are going to offend somebody. You can't ask people to smile, comment on thier clothes or belongings. You can't interact causally in the workplace at all. Perhaps we'll see workplaces where all communication is in writing and on topic. Do we want our workplace…

The entire dialog is becoming very tiresome, especially since it seems play out almost entirely on the Internet, where you can't even tell sarcasm half the time. On the one hand, you have decades of women and other minorities having to brush off a bunch of stupid comments or risk losing their jobs, and they're just tired of having to put up with that BS anymore. And they're right to feel that way. On the other hand,…

Great comment!

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't see how it's going to extremes. I sit at a table with 6 others and manage a team of 8, have followed this for years and enjoy constant conversations and have good relationships with all my co-workers. Maybe I just have a richer personal life than others, and have plenty of other things to talk about?

OK, sorry but this part... This was such a self-promoting bs. Richer life then others? You can't be serious! This is literally offensive to others. You just contradicted yourself right here. Good job!

As crazy as it sounds, yes, it's possible to have positive interactions in professional settings without making jokes about people's race/religion/gender/appearance/etc. That's not being PC, that's literally just being a grown-up.

Re: Leaked Apple emails reveal employees' complaints about toxic work environment

#250
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, sorry but this part... This was such a self-promoting bs. Richer life then others? You can't be serious! This is literally offensive to others. You just contradicted yourself right here. Good job!

As crazy as it sounds, yes, it's possible to have positive interactions in professional settings without making jokes about people's race/religion/gender/appearance/etc. That's not being PC, that's literally just being a grown-up.

Oh god, being a grownup. Yeah because grownups are immaculate. They never do or say anything stupid.

If this were true we would live in a perfect world and we couldn't make any rape jokes, because rape as a crime wouldn't exist in the first place.

From the article, who was the grown-up? The guy making a mistake by telling the rape joke and apologizing afterwords, or the lady who literally had a rage fit about the whole situation and ran directly to Tim Cook and because she didn't got her way left the company?

So tell me then? Who was the grownup?

And the comment I replied to?

@daughart bragging about having a richer life and acting with a 'holier than thou' attitude? Literally being offensive! And lecturing us about how not to be offensive in an office environment?

Really? I bet this is a fun person on parties. Also I would love to talk to that team of 8. Just asking them how fun it is to work together with a person like this.

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