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Tesla Wins Contract to Help Power the California Grid

bloomberg.com

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Re: Tesla Wins Contract to Help Power the California Grid

#71

Post by WalterBright »

wlesieutre wrote: post #36
WalterBright wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having real-time pricing of electricity coupled with users who can adapt their usage automatically to real-time prices will also considerably moderate power demand.

Commercial users do see this, with higher costs for energy in peak hours as well as "demand charges" based on their highest rate of consumption (typically measured in 15 minute increments). Charging more for those gives an economic incentive to trim down the energy consumption bursts that require peaker plants to run. Buildings can design load leveling into their systems with things like thermal energy storage that s…

People have always tried to come up with a reason to connect the refrigerator (and other appliances) to the internet. Finally, we have a reason - to moderate the power consumption of the refrigerator based on the spot price.

Re: Tesla Wins Contract to Help Power the California Grid

#72

Post by unepipe »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #69
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure peakers are expensive, but they are profitable, otherwise no-one would build and run them. Supply and demand etc. I'm not sure what you mean by Tesla cannibalizing the peakers? Do they already own traditional peaker plants? I agree revenue is revenue, I'm just saying this is perhaps unlikely to provide more revenue from sales outside CA.

Batteries are now cheaper than peakers everywhere, not just CA. That's what I'm saying. Tesla's PowerPack installs (battery storage receives federal incentives, nat gas does not) will replace peakers, leaving them as stranded assets (the cannibalization I refer to). Edit: unepipe: Tesla packs perform the exact same role as a peaker plant: energy on demand. They are distributed, dispatchable loads and generators, avai…

Tesla is not producing peakers, correct?

Re: Tesla Wins Contract to Help Power the California Grid

#73

Post by WalterBright »

flukus wrote: post #44
WalterBright wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having real-time pricing of electricity coupled with users who can adapt their usage automatically to real-time prices will also considerably moderate power demand.

Most peoples electricity usage is relatively inelastic and no one wants the cognitive overload of checking electricity prices before they put the TV on.

Oh, I disagree. A/C is very power hungry, and can be adjusted to cool the house lower than normal during cheap power times and let it go a bit higher during expensive power times. It can also "pre-cool" when power is cheaper.

The same goes for an electric water heater.

The charger for your Tesla can also adjust when it charges based on power prices.

The dishwasher/washer/dryer can be set to come on at night when the power rates dip.

Exterior lights can dim if the power rates go up.

Re: Tesla Wins Contract to Help Power the California Grid

#74

Post by ChuckMcM »

greglindahl wrote: post #68
mrfusion wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

50kwh seems high for your needs. Wouldn't five or ten be enough if you're constantly replenishing from the fuel cell?

Not only does Chuck want to own & charge an electric car, but he also wants to be able to take advantage of many days of sunny weather in a row. A smaller battery means a bigger gas bill.

Exactly right.

Re: Tesla Wins Contract to Help Power the California Grid

#75

Post by WalterBright »

greglindahl wrote: post #63
rdl wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be pretty happy to pause an EV charge many times. Since Teslas are data-connected, they could possibly do this with no grid interface beyond the power connection.

This is one very nice aspect of a grid when there are a lot of electric cars which charge at night, and have big enough batteries that they don't need to fully charge: you can absorb a lot of variability of overnight wind energy. And if electric cars also plug in at work... jackpot.

Even better than that, it could be set up so that your house drew power from the car battery when rates were high! You could set it to, for example, draw from the car battery until the charge drops to 80% or some settable limit.

Then all the rechargeable cars become part of the battery moderation of the whole grid!

Re: Tesla Wins Contract to Help Power the California Grid

#76

Post by itissid »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #69
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure peakers are expensive, but they are profitable, otherwise no-one would build and run them. Supply and demand etc. I'm not sure what you mean by Tesla cannibalizing the peakers? Do they already own traditional peaker plants? I agree revenue is revenue, I'm just saying this is perhaps unlikely to provide more revenue from sales outside CA.

Batteries are now cheaper than peakers everywhere, not just CA. That's what I'm saying. Tesla's PowerPack installs (battery storage receives federal incentives, nat gas does not) will replace peakers, leaving them as stranded assets (the cannibalization I refer to). Edit: unepipe: Tesla packs perform the exact same role as a peaker plant: energy on demand. They are distributed, dispatchable loads and generators, avai…

Could you share a reference for "Batteries are now cheaper than peakers everywhere"

Re: Tesla Wins Contract to Help Power the California Grid

#78

Post by toomuchtodo »

itissid wrote: post #76
toomuchtodo wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batteries are now cheaper than peakers everywhere, not just CA. That's what I'm saying. Tesla's PowerPack installs (battery storage receives federal incentives, nat gas does not) will replace peakers, leaving them as stranded assets (the cannibalization I refer to). Edit: unepipe: Tesla packs perform the exact same role as a peaker plant: energy on demand. They are distributed, dispatchable loads and generators, avai…

Could you share a reference for "Batteries are now cheaper than peakers everywhere"

Bookmarked to come back to show my math in the morning.

The gist is they can absorb power at a cost that is pretty close to free (when there is excess power flowing through the grid) versus burning a fuel whose price is volatile, a steep declining cost curve for batteries, and aggressive federal government tax incentives.

Re: Tesla Wins Contract to Help Power the California Grid

#79

Post by imtringued »

oldmanjay wrote: post #45
allendoerfer wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the future is rather lame and predictable. When imagining the future we are sometimes thinking there will be some giant jump forward, while in reality it is just decades and decades of minimizing microchips, increasing photovoltaic efficiency, improving batteries. This technology (except the microchip) is from the 19th (!) century. On top of that we are using some statistical m…

If the future is predictable to you, use that ability to make trillions of dollars and then use the resulting power to impact the future. Whining about it on the internet just makes you seem dismissive.

I think the lesson here is that there is no hidden trick, just a lot of work/money spent over a long time frame and not everyone will be successful.

Re: Tesla Wins Contract to Help Power the California Grid

#80

Post by Scarblac »

WalterBright wrote: post #33
nl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty important to realize that this isn't the problem that needs solving. Batteries aren't great for large amounts of power for long periods of time (yet). What they are good at is smoothing out the supply curve from potentially intermittent suppliers like solar and wind, and that is one of the things that causes price spikes.

Having real-time pricing of electricity coupled with users who can adapt their usage automatically to real-time prices will also considerably moderate power demand.

In the Netherlands there is a lot of reclaimed land that needs a lot of water pumped out regularly (though not 24/7, during normal weather).

I know there have been pilots with some of the larger pumping stations to incorporate the current real time price of electricity, as well as the forecast rain within the next few hours to decide when to turn on. Not sure if it's actually used in production now.

That sort of thing is a great fit for that problem.

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