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Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

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Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#121

Post by stcredzero »

tjic wrote: post #2

I think that the "Bay Area scene" is different from much of the world. I think that part of human nature is that people like people who are like themselves, so you sometimes get these insular / discriminatory sub cultures that judge people on superficial traits instead of the quality of their minds. From both this article and the tales of many friends, San Francisco strikes as one of these low-tolerance / high-discri…

San Francisco strikes as one of these low-tolerance / high-discrimination places.

The rapidity with which people flip the idiot bit on you, due to puddle-shallow signalling in the Bay Area really takes my breath away.

- The sound of keys clicking in a phone interview automatically means you are Googling the answer in an interview. Never mind that you are a dynamic language programmer and you are writing a 10 second scriptlet to answer the question.

- The mention of anything that sounds "audiophile" automatically means you are a terrible douche who naively believes in all of Monster Cable's woo. No need to actually evaluate what you are saying through knowledge of physics.

- You must subscribe to the magical powers of [insert paradigm/language here] or you are a dirty mudblood who's simply too dim to appreciate the magic. (Don't say anything like, "Soft factors, like how well your team works together, swamps the effect...")

- You must be able to mad-libs complete the paraphrase of recent CS textbooks, or you obviously never covered the topic.

This isn't even to mention weird prejudices and half-baked knowledge about older technologies. It's as if people didn't understand that https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5695816 is also a parody of programmers misunderstanding of technology.

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#122

Post by epalmer »

Torgo wrote: post #104
rdtsc wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I dislike places where people are provincial and close-minded, so I'll stick to the rural countryside and leave SF to the bigots. I like that quote. Copied it to my notes for future reference. To expand more on the topic, I wonder if remote workers are a good way to bring some revival for smaller rural communities. I visit some of those places and many have a beautiful setting, everyone knows each other…

It's still hard to get good Internet in many rural-ish areas, which makes this really hard. I tried, multiple times. We were supposed to get a modern "rural electrification project" in the 90s for broadband, but cable companies stole the money, aided and abetted by Congress.

> We were supposed to get a modern "rural electrification project" in the 90s for broadband, but cable companies stole the money, aided and abetted by Congress.

This is sad but not unexpected since politics and big companies play in this space.

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#123

Post by initram »

robohamburger wrote: post #61
kelukelugames wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it weird we consider over 30 old when legal protection doesn't kick in until we are over 40.

Even without the legality, it is super weird. If someone told me I was old at 30 I would laugh :)

My spouse is a dancer. They generally retire at around 30 yrs. old. (And by retire, I mean find a different job because you aren't going to retire on a dancer's salary.)

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#124

Post by Noseshine »

ASalazarMX wrote: post #41
SadWebDeveloper wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem with your solution is that you already now people, if you don't you have to rely on websites like freelancer that pretty much are the same as paid-to-win-the-bid in modern mobile video games and it's sad when people all over the world bid really low those making the website effectively racist regarding devs that to this for living instead of side jobs.

"making the website effectively racist regarding devs" Just so your communication skills improve, discrimination is not the same as racism.

On this different topic:

I got a lot more relaxed about language after reading numerous books by linguists (because that is their attitude, they just watch what is going on). In this context, I think the train has left the station (as we Germans say, "der Zug ist abgefahren") and "racist" now indeed has a new much wider meaning in public discourse contexts. It now seems to include "being different", in not necessarily clearly defined ways, the exact nature of the differences are to be taken from context.

I could just yesterday or today read about "racism" in a Guardian article about an attack on a Polish immigrant somewhere in Britain, who certainly wasn't of a different race [0]. However, I'm very relaxed about it - everybody knows what is meant. Also, a shift in meaning in some context does not mean the stricter meaning of the word is lost! The exact same people who may use a word loosely in one context use it with its strict meaning in a different one. If you start talking about biology this will happen. Words and language are extreme flexible, and such a change is not the end of the world.

I think their is some justification: When the word is used in such wider meaning it's more about the effect, not the cause.

My motto for language is the same as in programming: Be as lenient as possible with input - but be strict about output. In the language context that means I won't criticize when I actually clearly understand the meaning, but I myself try to use the right expressions, grammar, punctuation, etc.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/12/polish-man-a... (sub-headline: "...they are treating incident ... as racially aggravated")

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#125

Post by terrywilcox »

morgante wrote: post #106
whamlastxmas wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the equivalent of someone making a job site for black people to get jobs, and saying "be careful not to discriminate against whites!".

No, it's not. I have no problem with someone making a job site for older folks. My problem is when that site is accompanied by an attitude of old developers being better . Likewise, I would absolutely object to a job site for black people marketing itself by disparaging white people: "give tech companies your white and naive to burn them out and make them piles of cash."

We old developers _are_ better.

I, for one, have a lush neck beard and am seriously contemplating going with the sandals with socks look.

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#126

Post by employee8000 »

fatdog wrote: post #92

Can someone state honestly and pseudonymously why they don't hire oldz? Speculating I would say: - chose younger hire because cheaper and can be moulded into company specific role. - younger candidate more easily managed by less experienced (cheaper) manager. - wants to keep culture "pure," and needs kids to drink kool-aid. - values power and control over less experienced technically acceptable candidates. - get extr…

I'm in my 40s. I interview frequently and the problem with most devs over 40 is that they are slow or dont keep up with technology.

I interviewed one guy in his 60s who went to school at MIT for his phd. I was excited. And then when it came to the coding exercise not only was he using perl, which had no relevance to our stack (which he was informed about) he took 3x as long to complete the question. I interviewed another older person who had no idea what JSON was. "Oh it's like XML, I get it."

It makes them look like a weaker candidate when they are slower or less knowledgeable. If you keep up with technology and trends it really makes a difference. It doesn't matter that "I can pick it up quickly" because as a hiring manager why take the risk when someone already has the knowledge?

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#127

Post by jknoepfler »

As someone who entered the industry at ~32 and was immediately hired into Amazon to work on a team in AWS where I am around the median age, I find this conversation peculiar. The job I worked myself through a second college degree with was on small software team that was all older than myself. I went on a round of interviews recently and got an offer from all of them... I definitely don't feel like I'm going to expire in 5 years.

Then again, I won't be an "SDE II" or whatever I am now in 5 years, I'll have started a business, gone into consulting, or gone back to school for a Ph.D (pick 2?). So I don't know.

I have yet to hear anyone I've worked with say something ageist or fearful about age at work. Everyone is very cheerful about their careers.

And to be clear, I'm very, very blunt with management and co-workers about work-life balance. I work 35-40 hours a week when things are slow and step it up when things get hot two or three times a year. I think it's irresponsible to work more hours (it stunts growth, limits productivity, and makes me unhappy).

I don't think that ageism isn't a problem, I guess I just haven't seen it. Then again I've always been sort of disgusted by gaggles of squirming kids, so I've probably self-selected where I've tried to find work. Why in the hell would anyone want to move to SV in their 40's+? That's like going to a college party to make friends or find a romantic partner in your 40's... the prospects are much greener and more attractive elsewhere.

This whole conversation strikes me as very odd.

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#128

Post by collyw »

vemv wrote: post #24
santaclaus wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't want to be coding by age 50 anyway. Sooner or later it has to end. Why not? One of my favorite coworkers ever was over 50 and he still seemed to very much enjoy coding.

I'm pleased to read all the replies to my post - of course there are no universal truths! From my side I love programming per se (logical/creative thinking, etc), but programming as a profession is stressful: deadlines, unsatisfied clients, changing technologies... At age 50 I'd rather give my body and mind a rest, and focus in my family or whatnot. One thing is sure for me: I didn't come to this universe to spend it…

>At age 50 I'd rather give my body and mind a rest, and focus in my family or whatnot.

Its hardly a physically demanding job.

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#129

Post by wott »

vemv wrote: post #91
ArkyBeagle wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it hurts, you're doing it wrong :) I haven't had a stressful deadline in a very long time. Indeed, I've been weeks or months ahead in almost all cases. I've used that time to get a jump on integration, or help others get a jump on their schedule. By the time I'm ready to ship, the only thing between me and proper operation is disinformation from others. Now, granted, that's annoying to some people. But just consid…

It's an interesting point of view! For me, age 24, I'd see it extremely difficult to keep the same pace when I'm 50. Maybe I can do the same stuff, but slower. So by then I wouldn't feel 'discriminated' if someone hires a more energetic, available candidate.

But you don't need to keep the same pace: you don't spend half as much time in making mistakes, discovering new techniques, new paradigms, new domain-specific knowledge, new side skills, new whatever, when you are over 40.

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#130

Post by [deleted] »

kelukelugames wrote: post #37
johnwheeler wrote: post #3

Hi Everybody, I'm the creator of the site the down blog in the OP links to https://oldgeekjobs.com . I developed it as an MVP last night in one hour. The blog looks like it's getting crushed under load, so here's the content of the post: Check out https://oldgeekjobs.com/ if you’re over 30. In the software development industry it’s hard to get hired when you get past 35 and are still “just a developer”. Employers loo…

I find it weird we consider over 30 old when legal protection doesn't kick in until we are over 40.

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