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Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

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Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#71
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't want to be coding by age 50 anyway. Sooner or later it has to end. Why not? One of my favorite coworkers ever was over 50 and he still seemed to very much enjoy coding.

I'm pleased to read all the replies to my post - of course there are no universal truths! From my side I love programming per se (logical/creative thinking, etc), but programming as a profession is stressful: deadlines, unsatisfied clients, changing technologies... At age 50 I'd rather give my body and mind a rest, and focus in my family or whatnot. One thing is sure for me: I didn't come to this universe to spend it…

If it hurts, you're doing it wrong :)

I haven't had a stressful deadline in a very long time. Indeed, I've been weeks or months ahead in almost all cases. I've used that time to get a jump on integration, or help others get a jump on their schedule. By the time I'm ready to ship, the only thing between me and proper operation is disinformation from others.

Now, granted, that's annoying to some people. But just consider that some of that is just ... show business. The people that that annoys are probably not the people you want to work for anyway. And if you do it "my way", you'll know that, and they'll probably know that.

The "changing technology" part is the least source of stress - after a while, you begin to recognize the patterns that tools are designed to solve. So you're down to the fresh ... heck that is Other People's Code.

( the Other People's Code thing is purely about lost or asymmetric information - but it's a really important skill, if for no other reason than to know what not to do).

You just have to learn to separate the act of getting real work done from the act of performing in the corporate Kabuki theater that surrounds getting real work done. At least then you can let it run its course - because very close to all organizations eventually develop autoimmune disease and die of it.

It's not that I am not sympathetic - I am. It's just that after a couple of decades of doing this, you can understand the patterns and apply your efforts to the parts you know you can fix.

But don't let your mind rest. If you rest, you'll rust. A fellah I worked with since 2011 died in 2015 of stage 4 colon cancer, but other than that, he'd still be going well towards 70.

I want to be like that guy, without the colon cancer. And I always have.

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Check out https://oldgeekjobs.com/ because there may just be a job for you, a place where you won’t be discriminated against just because you’re getting older and wiser. All I see is a form to post job-ads, and nowhere to look at them.

Like the way the site is setup using Google Forms.

Thank you - I'm posting the jobs manually and using scp to sync the site.

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#73
post #2

I think that the "Bay Area scene" is different from much of the world. I think that part of human nature is that people like people who are like themselves, so you sometimes get these insular / discriminatory sub cultures that judge people on superficial traits instead of the quality of their minds. From both this article and the tales of many friends, San Francisco strikes as one of these low-tolerance / high-discri…

Like there are no bigots in NH. When I lived in Central NH I had a long hair and almost got run out of town for being a "fucking long haired hippie"

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#74
post #2

I think that the "Bay Area scene" is different from much of the world. I think that part of human nature is that people like people who are like themselves, so you sometimes get these insular / discriminatory sub cultures that judge people on superficial traits instead of the quality of their minds. From both this article and the tales of many friends, San Francisco strikes as one of these low-tolerance / high-discri…

[deleted]

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#75
Half of a coder's value is understanding "unspoken" requirements. In other words, "having experience in the industry". Or "domain-specific knowledge"

Back in the day, there were different industries to have experience in. Jet engines, medical devices, etc. Beyond that, nothing had/needed/understood software. For better or worse, it was a pinnacle.

These days "the industry" is "teens using snapchat". The further you are removed from that, the less valuable you are as a coder.

There are still of course jet engines and medical devices to be built, but (as a statement to our society?) those products and thus those skills are not as valuable as advertising.

Even more sadly, this trend is just the start. The current 40's-ish coders have their own industry experience to fall back on. The next generation of coders that will have nothing but 15secOfFame-centric jobs will have nothing to fall back on as younger 15msOfFame-centric things come in.

At some point we'll have to recognize coding as an NFL-style career. Get what you can while you can; you'll be a car salesman soon enough. Granted NFL players have 100x the pay plus public visibility that can help them after they retire.

None of this matters because the Earth will be sand in 20 years anyway. (Sorry I'm still digesting http://xkcd.com/1732/)

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#76
If your company doesn't have older geeks or is explicitly excluding them in the hiring process, it is missing out. Having worked in an environment with engineers of all ages, I learned a lot from older experience engineers.

Over the years they've seen and accumulated a lot of experience related to how systems work, how code works, domain knowledge. You'll never get that if you hire only college kids.

Someone I worked with just retired last year. He was perhaps not like the famous (infamous now) 10x programmer, but he was easily a 5x programmer. Because he learned how to learn better, he was also faster at picking up new technologies as well.

Also startups and many companies simply don't want to pay market rate for what an experienced engineer would demand. Also mature people are not as easy to bully and push around. It is harder to force them to work till 8pm every day.

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#77

You know what? I worked for a large tech company (unnamed) a few years ago. There were tons of old people who viewed the younger folks in contempt. It can happen both ways.

Absolutely; I made my entry in to Fortune XXX level companies by way of my tech skills doing basic things with Word that SVPs & MDs couldn't be bothered to learn, yet were critical to actually driving business. The hostility was palpable sometimes. There were a slim few senior staff workers who genuinely expressed gratitude for filling in for a very large, important skill-set they simply didn't grasp or feel compelled to learn during their professional careers. Being on the same team, I appreciated that, certainly not put-downs and disrespect during the process because of my seniority.

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#78
post #43
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pleased to read all the replies to my post - of course there are no universal truths! From my side I love programming per se (logical/creative thinking, etc), but programming as a profession is stressful: deadlines, unsatisfied clients, changing technologies... At age 50 I'd rather give my body and mind a rest, and focus in my family or whatnot. One thing is sure for me: I didn't come to this universe to spend it…

A lot of people would like to retire early whatever their job. It's increasingly hard to plan to do that these days, any more than you can plan to become independently wealthy.

You cannot plan to become wealthy, but you can attempt it. If you don't try it you've already lost, else you do have a chance.

The point of my original post is: 2016 is a really good time to be a developer, but still, if you don't do something extra you may have it really tough by age 40 (don't blame the "ageists"!).

You can be up to a number of things:

- launch your own startup

- become a freelancer, hack your way into great rates

- find a job with an outstanding salary

- move into management

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#79
post #2

I think that the "Bay Area scene" is different from much of the world. I think that part of human nature is that people like people who are like themselves, so you sometimes get these insular / discriminatory sub cultures that judge people on superficial traits instead of the quality of their minds. From both this article and the tales of many friends, San Francisco strikes as one of these low-tolerance / high-discri…

Absolutely agreed. Having lived all over the US, it seems to me that the places that are the most discriminatory and insular in practice are those that pride themselves on being inclusive in theory. NYC and SF have huge cultures of identity politics, with the end result that it's very clique-dominated and exclusive. NYC also has a very money-oriented social stratification. On the other hand, if you go to rural Montana, this sort of thing doesn't exist. The only "cliques" that exist might be e.g. what church you go to, but I was never judged negatively for not going to church. They just don't have the population density to be that picky about social circles, even if they wanted to be.

Re: Old Geek Jobs: fighting against ageism in the industry

#80
post #75

Half of a coder's value is understanding "unspoken" requirements. In other words, "having experience in the industry". Or "domain-specific knowledge" Back in the day, there were different industries to have experience in. Jet engines, medical devices, etc. Beyond that, nothing had/needed/understood software. For better or worse, it was a pinnacle. These days "the industry" is "teens using snapchat". The further you a…

dat surprise nihilism at the end
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