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Darpa Contract Awarded to Verify Blockchain-Based Integrity Monitoring System

guardti.me

21–30 of 58 posts

Re: Darpa Contract Awarded to Verify Blockchain-Based Integrity Monitoring System

#21
post #2

With something as important as blockchain verification, you would think DARPA would stop investing in private intellectual property.

Why is blockchain 'important' to Darpa? Because you are rooting for bitcoin or for some other non-specific to you reason? edit: Updated question to be more clear of intention

They want to make a decentralized chat app based on blockchain tech among other things.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-25/u-s-wants...

Re: Darpa Contract Awarded to Verify Blockchain-Based Integrity Monitoring System

#22
Quote: "Galois is a leader in formal verification, a technique that goes beyond testing and evaluation to provide mathematical assurances that a system works only as intended in all cases."

Wait -- mathematical assurances that a system works only as intended in all cases? That's not possible. It pretends that the Turing Halting problem[1] is soluble.

Not that this claim is at all uncommon. I regularly see similar claims about software validation, by people who either do not know, or who don't want to acknowledge, that this problem cannot be solved in the general case.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem : "Alan Turing proved in 1936 that a general algorithm to solve the halting problem for all possible program-input pairs cannot exist."

Re: Darpa Contract Awarded to Verify Blockchain-Based Integrity Monitoring System

#23
post #22

Quote: "Galois is a leader in formal verification, a technique that goes beyond testing and evaluation to provide mathematical assurances that a system works only as intended in all cases." Wait -- mathematical assurances that a system works only as intended in all cases ? That's not possible. It pretends that the Turing Halting problem[1] is soluble. Not that this claim is at all uncommon. I regularly see similar cl…

Real computers are finite state machines, not Turing machines.

Re: Darpa Contract Awarded to Verify Blockchain-Based Integrity Monitoring System

#24
post #11
post #9

Guardtime is set of tooling around a FIPS 140 timestamping appliance. Systems on the network submit hashes of their logs to the time stamping. Assuming the appliance remains secure, you can go back in the event of compromise and prove that your logs are unaltered up to a certain point. It's amazing that they seem to have built a $50 -$100 million dollar business here.

>> "Assuming the appliance remains secure" Makes me wonder what mathematics would prove this, or if it's assumed to be out of scope, and if so, what else is out of scope too.

I'm pretty sure the Guardtime product is a Merkle tree of timestamps. I'm also pretty sure whatever protocol they use to maintain it would _not_ be immediately recognized as a "blockchain" protocol. Of course the protocol can be modeled and checked. The question is why does anyone think that this activity can apply to "blockchains" in general. But, welcome to the world of industrial research funding.

Re: Darpa Contract Awarded to Verify Blockchain-Based Integrity Monitoring System

#25
post #22

Quote: "Galois is a leader in formal verification, a technique that goes beyond testing and evaluation to provide mathematical assurances that a system works only as intended in all cases." Wait -- mathematical assurances that a system works only as intended in all cases ? That's not possible. It pretends that the Turing Halting problem[1] is soluble. Not that this claim is at all uncommon. I regularly see similar cl…

You are correct that creating a program that verifies any other program is mathematically impossible. However, given some critical assumptions regarding the scope of the problem, we can use formal verification techniques to generate proofs for some programs. People in formal verification (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_verification) do research to find better ways of creating proofs for programs automatically.

Re: Darpa Contract Awarded to Verify Blockchain-Based Integrity Monitoring System

#26
post #22

Quote: "Galois is a leader in formal verification, a technique that goes beyond testing and evaluation to provide mathematical assurances that a system works only as intended in all cases." Wait -- mathematical assurances that a system works only as intended in all cases ? That's not possible. It pretends that the Turing Halting problem[1] is soluble. Not that this claim is at all uncommon. I regularly see similar cl…

Surely you agree that it's possible to prove x>0 is true after executing this program:

    if(x 
People have come up with techniques for reasoning about loops and recursion. Not in general, of course, but for some specific property (e.g., x > 0) and some specific loop (e.g., while(x > I regularly see similar claims about software validation

Validation and verification are very different things. Verification is "my program meets these formal specs". Validation is "my specs accurately encodes the whole problem". Indeed, there's no way to do validation in a provably correct way. (But, of course, mathematics and statistics can help :-) ). The good news is that a lot of security and other bugs arise even once you have the correct spec. So verification can be useful even if it's impossible to perfectly validate.

> by people who either do not know, or who don't want to acknowledge, that this problem cannot be solved in the general case.

It's somehow ironic that you invoke the Talking problem since Turing himself -- AFTER having proven the Halting problem -- basically conjectured the creation of formal methods.

Re: Darpa Contract Awarded to Verify Blockchain-Based Integrity Monitoring System

#27
post #22

Quote: "Galois is a leader in formal verification, a technique that goes beyond testing and evaluation to provide mathematical assurances that a system works only as intended in all cases." Wait -- mathematical assurances that a system works only as intended in all cases ? That's not possible. It pretends that the Turing Halting problem[1] is soluble. Not that this claim is at all uncommon. I regularly see similar cl…

[deleted]

Re: Darpa Contract Awarded to Verify Blockchain-Based Integrity Monitoring System

#28
post #11
post #9

Guardtime is set of tooling around a FIPS 140 timestamping appliance. Systems on the network submit hashes of their logs to the time stamping. Assuming the appliance remains secure, you can go back in the event of compromise and prove that your logs are unaltered up to a certain point. It's amazing that they seem to have built a $50 -$100 million dollar business here.

>> "Assuming the appliance remains secure" Makes me wonder what mathematics would prove this, or if it's assumed to be out of scope, and if so, what else is out of scope too.

I'm from Guardtime - this is our secure appliance that we built with a team of engineers coming out of the US Military Ant-Tamper community: http://bit.ly/2cgXiDu

Re: Darpa Contract Awarded to Verify Blockchain-Based Integrity Monitoring System

#29
post #22

Quote: "Galois is a leader in formal verification, a technique that goes beyond testing and evaluation to provide mathematical assurances that a system works only as intended in all cases." Wait -- mathematical assurances that a system works only as intended in all cases ? That's not possible. It pretends that the Turing Halting problem[1] is soluble. Not that this claim is at all uncommon. I regularly see similar cl…

This formal verification walkthrough goes through the hows and whys of a recent project with Amazon that may have some answers for you. Obviously a different project but the fundamentals are similar https://galois.com/blog/2016/09/verifying-s2n-hmac-with-saw/ (I work at Galois)

Re: Darpa Contract Awarded to Verify Blockchain-Based Integrity Monitoring System

#30
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blockchain is critical current & future technology, it's future is independent of Bitcoin's future. Bitcoin is the first implementation of a blockchain system, but it's a technology, not Bitcoin. All major log systems will be based on it; governments, banks, military, voting systems, etc. Highly suggest reading the Wikipedia entry on Blockchain to learn more and think about how you might use it too: https://en.m.…

I'm a blockchain blockhead. Any more suggested reading? Really basic like a) how will my debit card debit my money buying DD coffee? If I create another book can I "get blockchain" (so to speak) to protect my work? Thus, I will need to make the right choice to be covered under a blockchain or not? At 50000 ft I get the significance I think. I just cant even come close to explaining it.

I recommend "Mastering Bitcoin" by Andreas M. Antonopoulos. It provides great detail on how the Bitcoin network actually works, including the cryptography you need. Work through that and you'll know how blockchain payments work and have a good idea of how the technology can be applied to other areas.

It's available from O'Reily: http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920032281.do

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