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Pardon Snowden

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Re: Pardon Snowden

#751

Post by gremlinsinc »

I think maybe we should re-think the method of whistleblowing -- I think the best way in the current climate would be to leak to congress first, if nobody responds, hold a press conference (from Russia) -- and let them know the nature of evidence you have, and that you want whistleblower protection and then you'll go before congress and divulge the full nature... -- everyone in government should at least be able to see the nature, then they can leak/share whatever won't hurt national sec interests, --but it'll still get a lot of the issues out front and center... --though I still support Snowden in a big way--if it were me--something like that would be better, and provide less liability.

But they could definitely use a government whistleblower protection mechanism... But good luck with that.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#752

Post by nickpsecurity »

AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #331
strictnein wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden carte blanche stole and gave up "TONS of data about TONS of things", trusting only Greenwald, et al to filter out sensitive data.

I actually agree with you there. If you browse some of my older comment history, I made that exact point that he trusted a foreign journalist team to filter sensitive NOFORN and SAP information. However, I believe the net good that has come out of that disclosure, and the "I'm doing this to expose deep government malfeasance" as opposed to "The government sucks here's all the data" warrants the difference in treatmen…

" That being said, if we ever do get evidence that China or Russia did manage to get that data during his trip there, I'd change my tune immediately. That would be high treason, at least if it was intentional."

I guess you'll be changing your tune when you find out China and Russia read the papers containing all the TS/SCI and ECI leaks. They definitely have the information. ;)

Re: Pardon Snowden

#753

Post by bnolsen »

kpwagner wrote: post #357
jokoon wrote: post #267

I'm still genuinely curious about what the intelligence community thinks of him, if it's bad, what are the arguments against him. I've heard Mike Baker on the Joe Rogan experience say that he did not trust Snowden one bit. In the intelligence world, it's common to be very cautions about leaks since foreign actors like Russia can really benefit politically from such scandal. It can be difficult to really know all the…

My conservative friends, not in the intelligence community, really don't like him. They try to be civil, but I can almost hear them hiss when I mention "Snowden". It's odd to me. They don't mind digital surveillance at all. They think it's good if it makes everyone safer. Throwing in my two cents, what interests me on the Snowden topic, is his character. While I'm glad Snowden took the initiative and risk, I don't be…

well I'm conservative and all this surveillence runs roughshod over the 4th amendment. What we have is a bunch of control freaks in government who are afraid of their own shadows. I worked for years in black hat type ops and the attitude especially of the FBI is both creepy and hyper paranoid. Interestingly enough when it's someone very high up in the government incompetently and negligently dumping a bunch of intel (like some former sec of state) it's hands off. But crucify the guy who tries to expose gross abuse of power and bring down the machinery.

The machinery wants to crucify him and make a huge example. The machinery needs to be fixed and Snowden's actions need to be better examined by a group not so invested the massive machine.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#754

Post by PavlovsCat »

tomaskafka wrote: post #420
AsyncAwait wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... It's ironic that given all the valid concerns in your post, you also fell for the oldest piece of propaganda in the book by the very government you're concerned about and that you think that socialism has something to do with dictatorships, rather than it being just an idea that itself has nothing to do with dictatorships in itself, but was in t…

Nazi and socialist ideology is quite close. After all, the S in NSDAP stands for Socialist, and they targeted same voters.

> the S in NSDAP stands for Socialist, and they targeted same voters.

Not "and", but "because". Hitler also talked about peace a lot. Here's a hint: go by what they did. Talk was as cheap back then as it is today.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#755

Post by elliotec »

emmelaich wrote: post #708
wry_discontent wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read more of what he says, you'll find Chomsky says exactly this.

So you might summarise Chomsky's book as "some people are more persuasive than others" Does he also say that these people may be powerful because they are persuasive?

I think it's more along the lines of they are persuasive because they are powerful. The golden rule: he who has the gold makes the rules.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#756

Post by doug1001 »

peterkelly wrote: post #347
captainmuon wrote: post #60

Maybe a naive question, but what would the risk be for me to sign this? I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Increased scrutiny from the IRS (which should have nothing to do with this, but "they" might say hell why not?)? Inability to get security clearances in future? Being target…

This is the so-called "chilling effect" that's one of the most worrying implications of mass surveillance on a society... people feel afraid to speak out due to a concern they may be added to a list of some sort, and face negative real-life repercussions due to expressing their free speech. There were a couple of times where I actually called the public contact numbers for NSA & GCHQ regarding particular stories abou…

nailed it.

i appreciate the parent's frank concern regarding signing this Petition "God, I hate how quickly you can get paranoid these days. A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US..."

your response is the body punch that reminds us who is the person at the heart of this petition and that whatever the risks referred to in the parent, they are minuscule by comparison

as you said "the least we can do"

Re: Pardon Snowden

#757

Post by allendoerfer »

lettergram wrote: post #645
allendoerfer wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really like the idea of the small state. Things should be as simple as possible, but not simpler. Children have rights and when parents do not protect these rights, the state has to. There is a hierarchy of rights. The right of the child to be healthy is greater than the right of the parent to ignore scientific evidence.

I strongly agree with that in general, I just think it might be enforced differently. For example, you lose social security benefits if you do heroine, but heroine isn't illegal. In the case of children I agree for like polio, but perhaps not flu. Either way it's hard to judge and the major point of libertarians is that the state should decide. For example, a west Nile vaccine makes sense for almost everywhere. Besid…

> I strongly agree with that in general, I just think it might be enforced differently. For example, you lose social security benefits if you do heroine, but heroine isn't illegal.

I think it should be illegal, but junkies should not be prosecuted. So I have a similar stance. The US seems to be goldmine for political activists. It is already very rich and successful and many of its social problems can be changed just through policies (e.g. prison population).

It is interesting how different (neo-)liberalism is seen in Europe vs. the US. When conservatives in the US speak about liberals they mean ordoliberalism and leftism, meaning increasing rights for people and decreasing rights for corporations, while Europe's left means the exact opposite, when it speaks about neoliberalism.

Both are wrong. (Neo-)liberalism includes both social liberalism and market liberalism. Maybe "individualism" is an easier term to describe the general idea. It should be seen as a second dimension on top of the left-right spectrum. You can introduce liberal policies that harm or help the poor or the rich.

I do not know the Libertarian party in the US, but what you are describing as libertarian here does not seem libertarian to me at all. Just careful and sensible liberalism. Libertarianism has some anarchist vibes to it. I would say the Tea party has libertarian policies.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#758

Post by aidenn0 »

zeveb wrote: post #647
aidenn0 wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've gathered, the intelligence community thinks bad things about him; their view is "fix it from the inside." Public leaks can be incredibly damaging to our operational advantages against various adversaries, and it's often non-obvious which data will be most helpful to them. The main reason I stand behind him is the matter of the director of the NSA lying to congress under oath. We don't even have the ill…

> The main reason I stand behind him is the matter of the director of the NSA lying to congress under oath. Did he? Everything I've read is that he used true words, but didn't explain what those true words actually meant.

He was asked if the NSA had records on millions of US citizens and his answer was "No sir. There are cases where they could inadvertently perhaps collect, but not wittingly."

His first explanation for this answer post Snowden was that the program was too secret to reveal publicly, so he had to give the "least untruthful answer" that wouldn't reveal the existence of the program.

Later his lawyer said that he had forgotten about the program in question.

Either way he did not use true words, but he may have merely forgotten rather than lied.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#759

Post by nzp »

cconroy wrote: post #612
logfromblammo wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't "making the world better" a value judgment that can be shaped by your peers and by your environment, and also not mutually exclusive with making the world worse? Thus, if an elite makes the world worse in my opinion by reducing diversity of competing opinions in mass media, they could use that platform to propagandize and publicize any philanthropic efforts they may also involve themselves with, such that your…

An example from the set of making the world better would be Bill Gates' foundation which is helping eradicate polio [0]. If that is not a good thing I give up. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20080414095646/http://www.polioe...

Giving these individual examples, anecdotes really, is even more simplistic in a sense. Within just about any social phenomenon, you can find examples of practices/effects that are incongruent, or even opposite, to the “main gist” of the phenomenon itself. It's really not about what any particular individual does at some particular time, it's about the collective effect a certain social group.

Of course, having the state of affairs as we currently have it, B&MGF's efforts are certainly to be saluted, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't contemplate and work towards a world where you don't need to depend on the good will of a billionaire to have a chance of people not dying of various preventable diseases; Or, indeed, even to recognize that such a state of affairs is unacceptable.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#760

Post by miraj »

krschultz wrote: post #378
clarkmoody wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... The United States government has done an excellent bit of propaganda to convince the bulk of the public that they are the most free people on earth. We salute the flag and sing the national anthem at games. We have the presidents' pictures on the walls of our classrooms. We chant "USA" at political rallies. But the government of the United State…

Which country would you suggest is the most free today? Not trolling, just wondering if I was going to move somewhere else, where would I go?

Canada?

"The Legatum Prosperity Index" (1), states that: "Canada is now the freest (sic) country in the world, having risen five places to 1st in the Personal Freedom sub-index." (2)

see this also. "Freedom in the World 2015" (3)

1. http://www.prosperity.com/

2. http://www.prosperity.com/#!/headline-findings

3. https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-...

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