Live data from Hacker News

Pardon Snowden

pardonsnowden.org

731–740 of 814 posts

Re: Pardon Snowden

#731
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I read this, it always makes me wonder what is going through your mind: Being a traitor does not mean someone is wrong or deserving of punishment. The implication is that a person's country is always right, and also that if he had been a Russian spy, he would have been a patriot. No. Right and wrong are not governed by national borders and laws.

> When I read this, it always makes me wonder what is going through your mind I don't think Snowden was right. He was, in fact, wrong as a matter of the law and the Constitution. His concerns were misplaced. Okay, that's fine. But then, rather than doing the honourable thing and resigning — and keeping his oath — he betrayed his oath, he betrayed the trust placed in him, stole information he had no right to access in…

"He was, in fact, wrong as a matter of the law and the Constitution."

Was he? The Constitution provides us right to basic privacy against searches without warrants and due process for executive action. NSA was violating one with surveillance tech and other with parallel construction. Congress is supposed to hold executive branch accountable but was throwing away GAO's reports on abuses. Executive Branch was supposed to tell Americans truth about how they were approaching the surveillance issue and its affectiveness. They lied about both. They also had FBI raid the houses of those who used internal channels to complain about actual corruption like Trailblazer & ignoring Constitution. Finally, the judicial system that's supposed to hold other two in account was (a) provided with disinformation and (b) told in Jewel case that it had no business making rulings on the topic. So, Congress and Executive were corrupt in this case with Judicial powerless.

Only thing left in Constitution is leaks (First Amendment) with a follow-up of jury nullification, Presidential pardon, or selective application of 2nd Amendment. Leaks while in hiding hoping for first two is nicer than number three. I agree with critics that he shouldn't have leaked foreign ops and maybe should get less leniency for that. However, the whole first paragraph of my reply is guilt across the board esp in Congress and Executive branch. He shouldn't be tried unless they are for the crimes he revealed. He should also get leniency for bringing the domestic abuses to our attention. Binney et al, who played it responsibly, should get full immunity plus their paychecks for their service.

"Moreover, I am convinced that his behaviour meets the standard for treason."

Treason is killing 6,000+ Americans, maiming more, and costing us trillions in liabilities by use of disinformation to start a war for political purposes. That's straight-up murdering us. Snowden did a mix of whistleblowing on domestic stuff Alexander/Clapper lied about under oath, whistleblowing on key foreign stuff that could've damaged us due to stupidity of politicians, and a traitor on foreign, operational stuff that's the whole point of NSA's existence (as in: legitimate). So, he's a mixed bag with worst result being they get less automated spying on some groups. (shrugs)

Note: I also don't fully trust him as his statements changed a few times, he's a trained spy, and he conned his coworkers for their passwords. He's sneaky when he thinks it's justified for his mission. My calculations above are strictly based on statements/actions of corrupt government vs specific things he leaked. He looks like a saint compared to them, esp in terms of innocent blood on hands.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the so-called "chilling effect" that's one of the most worrying implications of mass surveillance on a society... people feel afraid to speak out due to a concern they may be added to a list of some sort, and face negative real-life repercussions due to expressing their free speech. There were a couple of times where I actually called the public contact numbers for NSA & GCHQ regarding particular stories abou…

This chilling effect has a counterpart which would be directly amplified by pardoning Snowden. In short, if Snowden gets pardoned, it will encourage further people to leak confidential documents and violate the Espionage act since they will be emboldened by the thought they might get pardoned down the road.

That sounds great to me. We need more whistle blowers and more civil disobedience. We need to change, the US is a joke; a parody of itself. We have all of this freedom branding, but are afraid of that freedom. We cower behind a police state and express our fear as hatred for those who are different from us. We have exported the American Dream to the world and destroyed everything about ourselves that made this place special.

We have demolished the middle class. Our infrastructure is shit. Education is so expensive it often makes economic sense not to get educated. We spend hundreds of billions of dollars on "defense" instead of investing it in fixing all of the broken shit we have going on.

Worse, our election system is so broken that we have to pick between two pieces of shit that don't represent anyone's interests. There is no nuance, it's one tantrum after another.

Who do we hate now? Who's personal life do we need to pry onto? Can we talk about how hot Kurdish freedom fighters are? Hillary is not a criminal, she's like grandma. Can you believe Tump has small hands? Look at his skin! Jobs?! You want jobs? Talk to the Mexicans who took your jobs. TPP? What TPP? NAFTA? What is? You want healthcare? Welcome to indentured servitude. National healthcare is for freedom-hating communist muslims. Public education? Too expensive. Of course, we have to spend $1.5 trillion on fighter jets, but that's basic common sense.

I am honestly disgusted by what we've become. We should change our slogan to "fuck the world, kill them all". Then, at least, we'd be honest.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#733

To pardon Snowden seems like a very popular opinion around here. Can anyone help me change my opinion on this matter? The way I currently see it: - Snowden indiscriminately hovered up so many documents, it was impossible to vet all of them. - The vast majority of these documents do not constitute whistleblowing, but are standard operating procedure for the NSA. The US expects the NSA to do this. - Leaking standard-op…

> What's missing for me? facts. you mis-stated several things about the story. I don't have time to do your research for you. there's a lot about it on the internet already. begin by educating yourself about the facts and then make your judgments. > high-school diploma Snowden. vicious cheap shot and ad hominem. why did you say that? do you only respect people with piece of paper signed by a university dean?

He did the same thing by making sure to reference Greenwald's "boyfriend". He wanted to make sure to emphasize to you, the reader, that Glenn Greenwald is gay and is therefore bad.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#734
post #59

Also don't forget about Manning who actually went to prison and is not getting any publicity now.

I'm for a pardon for Snowden, but not Manning. Snowden released info on a deeply classified and unethical program, targeted to dismantle the programs in question. Manning carte blanche released TONS of data about TONS of things, trusting only Wikileaks to filter out sensitive data.

Basically same thing Snowden did except he leaked to fewer people who were a bit more reliable. The problems were two fold:

1. A pile of unredacted, classified, and legitimate operations in the hand of foreigners which included at least two being targeted by them. They should've never had this information. He could have cherry-picked it to whistleblowing stuff during time he organized all of it but didn't. I'd have done the opposite to protect legit ops and sources.

2. He put all that at risk of foreign agencies, esp in Russia or China, getting it given their hackers are badass while reporters' IT groups are... average. After seeing Citizenfour, I was pretty confident his stuff could've been grabbed multiple times if he didn't have the element of surprise. It was also clear his tradecraft was weak vs what I read about in espionage non-fiction. I bet the journalists more so.

So, definitely parallels to Manning. I expected it from Manning over Snowden given Manning was a stressed-out youth going through an identity crisis in a war zone whereas Snowden was a trained spy claiming moral high ground in general and aiming to protect decent people. I'm not letting him off on dumping the foreign stuff. Especially while many of the targets do the same shit to us with local, legal protections for their own spies doing it. He needs to own up to that.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which country would you suggest is the most free today? Not trolling, just wondering if I was going to move somewhere else, where would I go?

The Heritage Foundation published its Index of Economic Freedom[1], which tracks various factors for many nations. While not a direct analog to personal liberty, economic freedom certainly is something to strive for. Take a look for yourself and see if their rankings make sense. [1]: http://www.heritage.org/index/

High freedom from corruption in Chile, a country whose government is essentially a kleptocracy? Yeah, I would take that with a hefty dose of sodium-chloride.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#736
post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To quote a man who was actively surveilled by the US government for much of his later life and no one believed him... "They wrote in the old days that it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country. But in modern war, there is nothing sweet nor fitting in your dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason." -Earnest Hemingway

That quote is from "Notes on the Next War: A Serious Topical Letter" which was published in Esquire in 1935 and was about war (based on his experience from WWI), not about surveillance or about standing up for democracy in times of peace. FBI opened their file on Hemingway in 1942: https://vault.fbi.gov/ernest-miller-hemingway Nobody in the US will "die like a dog" for supporting a presidential pardon of Snowden and…

I didn't even spell his name right. Still a good quote.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#737

Maybe a naive question, but what would the risk be for me to sign this? I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Increased scrutiny from the IRS (which should have nothing to do with this, but "they" might say hell why not?)? Inability to get security clearances in future? Being target…

Better to be on the right side of history. I mean, if you are asking the question, you have already made a personal decision that you would like to sign it. Not doing so would be betraying yourself. That would be worse than not getting a security clearance I would have thought. In any case, I doubt the spooks would be really that bothered. You can still spy AND take the moral high road :-)

Re: Pardon Snowden

#738

Pardoning Snowden would still leave too many unanswered questions. If he's innocent, then a trial would clear the air. Otherwise, future IT workers will believe mass exporting SharePoint/file servers as leverage is acceptable. While "rule of least privilege" is a good default access control policy; Gov and corporate IT departments are now over compensating their sharing policies due to the precedence Snowden has set.

"Pardoning Snowden would still leave too many unanswered questions. If he's innocent, then a trial would clear the air."

That's not true given it's Espionage Act. The ridiculous setup of that Act essentially says he can be hit with highest charges, not provide anything classified for his defense, have released entirely legitimate stuff, and still get convicted due to technicality of the law. Plus, our legal system is an adversarial one not designed to bring out truth: prosecutors aim for convictions while attempting to dismiss anything that undermines it.

Best way to get truth, like him or not, is a pardon where he can say anything with immunity. If he's bad and ego-heavy, he'll slip up eventually. He already does on some things while enjoying the interviews too much. ;)

Re: Pardon Snowden

#739

I don't agree with Snowden's actions completely, but, on the whole, he acted in good faith. I think the mass dump was a little ill advised, and he maybe could have thrown his lot in with slightly more responsible journalists who could have arbitrated what would be useful for the public to know a little more judiciously (I like Greenwald, but he can be unreasonable sometimes). However, on the whole I think it was for…

He didn't mass-dump like Wikileaks does though; Greenwald has been dripping out the vetted content over time..

No, he mass-dumped domestic and foreign operations... including those used on highest-value targets... onto foreign journalists intent to publish best of it. That either equivalent to what Manning did or pretty close. They latter published lots of this with real consequences for NSA's SIGINT. He also didn't have to.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read more of what he says, you'll find Chomsky says exactly this.

So you might summarise Chomsky's book as "some people are more persuasive than others" Does he also say that these people may be powerful because they are persuasive?

It is easy to be persuasive when you are asking people to simply remain as they are: uninformed on important matters.
Post reply on HN