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Deep Reinforcement Learning to Play StarCraft

arxiv.org

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Re: Deep Reinforcement Learning to Play StarCraft

#31

Post by whorleater »

ufo wrote: post #30
whorleater wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SC1 is not a weak point, it's generally considered to be better balanced, and is the "gold standard" for RTS's. SC1 also has far more training dataset than SC2.

In addition to the training data, there is also the BWAPI project, that lets the bots play the game against other bots or humans. http://bwapi.github.io/ There isn't something similar available for SC2 due to a mix of technical and nontechnical issues: https://github.com/bwapi/bwapi/wiki/FAQ#will-there-be-an-api...

Yep! But as someone that built something on top of the BW API, I'd wager anyone going after SC1 AI to probably write their own thing. It's still an amazing API for general heuristics and modeling, but there's a few issues with it that stand in the way of making it a scaleable foundation.

Re: Deep Reinforcement Learning to Play StarCraft

#32

Post by loser777 »

Increased AI performance in RTS is always exciting, but part of me is disappointed by the fact that the AI doesn't "see" or interact with the game that humans do. That is, humans don't play the game by querying the state/status of each unit and then issuing commands via some API. It would be fun (though complicate things significantly) to produce an AI that at least has some notion of a mouse/keyboard so that you could see it in action from a first person perspective.

Re: Deep Reinforcement Learning to Play StarCraft

#33

Post by knicholes »

ajsalminen wrote: post #27
kbody wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually SC1 is the defacto choice when talking about StarCraft esports and the best choice since the best SC players have been honing their skills on SC1 for a long time (see South Korea SC1 esports scene).

There are actual professional players still active for SC2 though. I don't think you can make that claim for SC1 because even though the competitive scene has been growing again nobody is getting a paycheck for playing competitive games.

You've got to be kidding. There's one going on right now with a prize pool of $31k! http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Main_Page

Re: Deep Reinforcement Learning to Play StarCraft

#34

Post by rfrey »

wamatt wrote: post #28
jcl wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

APM numbers are actions-per-minute, not the actions-per-unit-per-minute measurement in which the AI's performance is reported. It's not clear how the two map to each other -- the AI may well be exceeding human performance when multiple unit groups are considered.

That's a good point and not really correct to conflate the two. It would then seem to suggest, that forces with more than say, 5 units (780 average sustained APM) and above, would likely be getting into super human territory.

I am not a gamer... but I have to ask. 780 APM is possible with human players? 13 actions per second? I can't come close to clicking my mouse that fast. I don't think I can blink that fast.

Re: Deep Reinforcement Learning to Play StarCraft

#35

Post by Merem »

rfrey wrote: post #34
wamatt wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good point and not really correct to conflate the two. It would then seem to suggest, that forces with more than say, 5 units (780 average sustained APM) and above, would likely be getting into super human territory.

I am not a gamer... but I have to ask. 780 APM is possible with human players? 13 actions per second? I can't come close to clicking my mouse that fast. I don't think I can blink that fast.

Yes, it's possible. Bear in mind that not just clicks count though. July managed a peak APM of 818 in Stracraft: Brood War in an official game. The average APM of a match is usually between 300 and 500, also depending on the race that is played.

Re: Deep Reinforcement Learning to Play StarCraft

#36

Post by Merem »

ajsalminen wrote: post #27
kbody wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually SC1 is the defacto choice when talking about StarCraft esports and the best choice since the best SC players have been honing their skills on SC1 for a long time (see South Korea SC1 esports scene).

There are actual professional players still active for SC2 though. I don't think you can make that claim for SC1 because even though the competitive scene has been growing again nobody is getting a paycheck for playing competitive games.

While there are currently no professional players, as amateurs, the top guys definitely earn more than what you would get as a professional SC2 player. In July 2016, the 10th highest earned $7,699.18 USD, the highest $36,811.18 USD. And those numbers don't include ad revenue, tournament winnings or sponsorship deals.

Re: Deep Reinforcement Learning to Play StarCraft

#37

Post by jfoutz »

rfrey wrote: post #34
wamatt wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good point and not really correct to conflate the two. It would then seem to suggest, that forces with more than say, 5 units (780 average sustained APM) and above, would likely be getting into super human territory.

I am not a gamer... but I have to ask. 780 APM is possible with human players? 13 actions per second? I can't come close to clicking my mouse that fast. I don't think I can blink that fast.

There are hotkeys. there's a big map you can scroll around, but you can bind a specific view of a map to f1-f4. you can get a lot of actions just rolling through those, looking for specific events. Is the attack coming from over here? is the base still collecting resources? stuff like that.

You can also hotkey individuals or groups, 1-8. Again just rolling through those will get you a fair amount of apm.

That said, 780 is peak for world class players. You probably can't do that, ever, because by the time you put in the years of effort, your reflexes will have decayed.

On the other hand, brood war was a subtle game. APM is not the be all end all of winning. Getting proficient with a few aspects of the game can make you pretty good pretty quickly. Heck, just looking around the map like i mentioned above will help. Some people are amazing controlling a few units like a surgeon. Those units are practically unstoppable. But they miss the big picture. Scanning the map lets you distract, delay and ultimately minimize the value of those unstoppable units.

Re: Deep Reinforcement Learning to Play StarCraft

#38

Post by ajsalminen »

Merem wrote: post #36
ajsalminen wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are actual professional players still active for SC2 though. I don't think you can make that claim for SC1 because even though the competitive scene has been growing again nobody is getting a paycheck for playing competitive games.

While there are currently no professional players, as amateurs, the top guys definitely earn more than what you would get as a professional SC2 player. In July 2016, the 10th highest earned $7,699.18 USD, the highest $36,811.18 USD. And those numbers don't include ad revenue, tournament winnings or sponsorship deals.

Earning through streaming can be detrimental to the level of play though. At least one of those top10 doesn't even bother playing competitive matches and I'm pretty sure he's not the only one that's not really a competitor even if he's making a living as an entertainer playing Starcraft.

Re: Deep Reinforcement Learning to Play StarCraft

#39

Post by ajsalminen »

knicholes wrote: post #33
ajsalminen wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are actual professional players still active for SC2 though. I don't think you can make that claim for SC1 because even though the competitive scene has been growing again nobody is getting a paycheck for playing competitive games.

You've got to be kidding. There's one going on right now with a prize pool of $31k! http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Main_Page

Are you referring to the just completed Afreeca Starleague with $21k prize pool? Only the top two got more than a typical month's paycheck (winner did get over $10k) and it lasted a couple of months. There also haven't been any other events even close to that size this year for BW. Pro players don't typically live off tournament winnings.

Re: Deep Reinforcement Learning to Play StarCraft

#40

Post by empath75 »

Merem wrote: post #35
rfrey wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a gamer... but I have to ask. 780 APM is possible with human players? 13 actions per second? I can't come close to clicking my mouse that fast. I don't think I can blink that fast.

Yes, it's possible. Bear in mind that not just clicks count though. July managed a peak APM of 818 in Stracraft: Brood War in an official game. The average APM of a match is usually between 300 and 500, also depending on the race that is played.

A lot of that is 'spamming', where they keep their hands moving and doing things even if they're not particularly meaningful, just so they can keep the pace of the eye/brain/hands feedback loop going.
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