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Pardon Snowden

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Re: Pardon Snowden

#511

Post by SoftwareMaven »

hota_mazi wrote: post #474
peterkelly wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the so-called "chilling effect" that's one of the most worrying implications of mass surveillance on a society... people feel afraid to speak out due to a concern they may be added to a list of some sort, and face negative real-life repercussions due to expressing their free speech. There were a couple of times where I actually called the public contact numbers for NSA & GCHQ regarding particular stories abou…

This chilling effect has a counterpart which would be directly amplified by pardoning Snowden. In short, if Snowden gets pardoned, it will encourage further people to leak confidential documents and violate the Espionage act since they will be emboldened by the thought they might get pardoned down the road.

If people are emboldened to blow the whistle on outrageous, secret, unconstitutional, anti-democratic activities of the US or state governments, then this is the best possible outcome.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#512

Post by Inlinked »

To pardon Snowden seems like a very popular opinion around here. Can anyone help me change my opinion on this matter?

The way I currently see it:

- Snowden indiscriminately hovered up so many documents, it was impossible to vet all of them.

- The vast majority of these documents do not constitute whistleblowing, but are standard operating procedure for the NSA. The US expects the NSA to do this.

- Leaking standard-operating-procedure documents damaged the NSA, and thus the security / defense of the US.

- Snowden did not attempt to go through internal channels.

- Snowden leaked / whistleblowed these documents in an operation using his secret agent skills.

- Snowden fled to Russia, a currently not-so-cold competitor of the US.

- Snowden's documents ended up in the hands of Russian and Chinese intelligence agencies.

- Snowden's innocent leaks, such as the entire Intellipedia, damaged the intelligence community, causing them to "clam up", and place more mistrust on "outsiders", such as high-school diploma Snowden.

- Snowden gave the document cache to incompetent journalists. Greenwald send his boyfriend to smuggle documents through British customs.

If Snowden had given only the slides on the NSA spying on American citizens, and cooperating with US companies, that would have been whistleblowing. As it stands, to me, it feels like a Russian operation to inflict PR/diplomacy damage on the US.

I have a lot of respect for whistleblowers, and also for Snowden. What he did is nothing short of heroic. But I do not believe in a pardon for someone who misuses his admin privileges to download all the documents he could get his hands on, then flees to Russia. What's missing for me?

Re: Pardon Snowden

#513

Post by rbanffy »

drjesusphd wrote: post #503
jrochkind1 wrote: post #407

Chelsea Manning needs it more, and in my opinion is just as much deserving of a pardon. I wish Manning was getting more attention and pressure for a pardon.

While I also agree Manning deserves a pardon, to be fair, he was significantly more careless than Snowden. Basically all the arguments (lies) they use to damn Snowden can be fairly applied to Manning.

Carelessness should have nothing to do with it. It's even more urgent to pardon her because she is already incarcerated.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#514

Post by kristopolous »

hota_mazi wrote: post #474
peterkelly wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the so-called "chilling effect" that's one of the most worrying implications of mass surveillance on a society... people feel afraid to speak out due to a concern they may be added to a list of some sort, and face negative real-life repercussions due to expressing their free speech. There were a couple of times where I actually called the public contact numbers for NSA & GCHQ regarding particular stories abou…

This chilling effect has a counterpart which would be directly amplified by pardoning Snowden. In short, if Snowden gets pardoned, it will encourage further people to leak confidential documents and violate the Espionage act since they will be emboldened by the thought they might get pardoned down the road.

Ah the Espionage Act. It's written by the organization that will penalize you if you speak out against them - but don't worry, they're dedicated to protect your speech even if you speak out against them.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#515

Post by jcoffland »

captainmuon wrote: post #60

Maybe a naive question, but what would the risk be for me to sign this? I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Increased scrutiny from the IRS (which should have nothing to do with this, but "they" might say hell why not?)? Inability to get security clearances in future? Being target…

A lot of Germans had this attitude back in the late 30s early 40s.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#516

Post by mtgx »

hota_mazi wrote: post #474
peterkelly wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the so-called "chilling effect" that's one of the most worrying implications of mass surveillance on a society... people feel afraid to speak out due to a concern they may be added to a list of some sort, and face negative real-life repercussions due to expressing their free speech. There were a couple of times where I actually called the public contact numbers for NSA & GCHQ regarding particular stories abou…

This chilling effect has a counterpart which would be directly amplified by pardoning Snowden. In short, if Snowden gets pardoned, it will encourage further people to leak confidential documents and violate the Espionage act since they will be emboldened by the thought they might get pardoned down the road.

The solution to that is not to not sign the petition, but to lobby for proper whistleblower protection, so the whistleblowers go through the proper channels to expose the crimes without retaliation.

If the answer to that is "well, they'll never agree to that", then leaking will happen regardless of whether Snowden is pardoned or not.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#518

Post by Semiapies »

dsacco wrote: post #375
lettergram wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By logging into "hacker news" regularly, mentioning the NSA (and probably other key terms: data collection, US citizen) I'm sure you are already on a list.

> By logging into "hacker news" regularly, mentioning the NSA (and probably other key terms: data collection, US citizen) I'm sure you are already on a list. If the NSA really does maintain these macabre "lists", it's kind of hard to believe they'd be so unsophisticated as to put you on one for visiting a website called "Hacker News" that has nothing to do with the definition of "hacking" that they care about.

It may be hard to believe, but it's typical of surveillance programs. They aren't run by cunning Men in Black, they're just another government program with bureaucratic directives and clueless people in charge.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#519

Post by tanderson92 »

colemickens wrote: post #495
tanderson92 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trumps daughter pals with Putin's girlfriend. Just saying. Clinton's daughter pals with Trump's daughter (and pledges to still do so after the election). Does that make Clinton an irredeemable "deplorable"? edit: added context

Is Chelsea Clinton a white nationalist/supremist and I missed the memo?

That's not my argument, and I don't claim she is. I'm trying to point out the parent's logic carries some implications that are worth exploring, to see if the logic is sound. (my opinion is that the logic is faulty)

Re: Pardon Snowden

#520

Post by mintplant »

j2kun wrote: post #392
jokoon wrote: post #267

I'm still genuinely curious about what the intelligence community thinks of him, if it's bad, what are the arguments against him. I've heard Mike Baker on the Joe Rogan experience say that he did not trust Snowden one bit. In the intelligence world, it's common to be very cautions about leaks since foreign actors like Russia can really benefit politically from such scandal. It can be difficult to really know all the…

Though I won't name any names, I have heard a big reason is that he was indiscriminate about what he leaked.

Are you sure you're not thinking of Assange or Manning? Snowden and his team have been much more careful and restrained with what they release than, say, WikiLeaks.
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