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Pardon Snowden

pardonsnowden.org

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Re: Pardon Snowden

#381

Post by bayesian_horse »

peterkelly wrote: post #347
captainmuon wrote: post #60

Maybe a naive question, but what would the risk be for me to sign this? I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Increased scrutiny from the IRS (which should have nothing to do with this, but "they" might say hell why not?)? Inability to get security clearances in future? Being target…

This is the so-called "chilling effect" that's one of the most worrying implications of mass surveillance on a society... people feel afraid to speak out due to a concern they may be added to a list of some sort, and face negative real-life repercussions due to expressing their free speech. There were a couple of times where I actually called the public contact numbers for NSA & GCHQ regarding particular stories abou…

It's not so much about mass surveillance but rather things like the TSA and stupid immigration policies which are at play here.

Really, spotting your name on a petition isn't mass surveillance. It's not even a breach of privacy in any sense, because that's exactly what petitions are for.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#382

Post by halis »

That's a great idea. He did break the law, but he alerted this country to things that we need to be aware of. I fully support a pardon for him and will sign it.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#383

Post by BeetleB »

benmcnelly wrote: post #245
RRRA wrote: post #206

If you fear signing this, _and don't_, you really don't understand long risk mitigation and are just preparing yourself to be scared even more in the long run. Just like privacy doesn't exist without others, signing this will at least help by giving strength, and privacy, in numbers. Leaving this resistance alone, as if they were some heroes you respect but won't stand by, is really a cowardly way of being anti socie…

I don't know what long risk mitigation is, but I'm offended. /s But seriously, nobody at the NSA is going to place* you on a watch list because you are part of a small vocal minority that raised support online for Snowden, a wanted traitor and saboteur of the USA. *There is however a good chance that the money grubbing bastards at one of the third party contractors the NSA eats up reports and analytics from will prof…

>But seriously, nobody at the NSA is going to place* you on a watch list because you are part of a small vocal minority that raised support online for Snowden

I agree. They will not place you on a watch list because you support Snowden.

They will place you on a watch list because they can.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#384

Post by bayesian_horse »

krschultz wrote: post #378
clarkmoody wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... The United States government has done an excellent bit of propaganda to convince the bulk of the public that they are the most free people on earth. We salute the flag and sing the national anthem at games. We have the presidents' pictures on the walls of our classrooms. We chant "USA" at political rallies. But the government of the United State…

Which country would you suggest is the most free today? Not trolling, just wondering if I was going to move somewhere else, where would I go?

Depends on what kind of freedoms you are looking for. Many European countries, Germany for example, have better protections from law enforcement and crime. On the other hand free speech is more restricted by libel or hate speech directives.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#385

Post by hacknat »

I don't agree with Snowden's actions completely, but, on the whole, he acted in good faith.

I think the mass dump was a little ill advised, and he maybe could have thrown his lot in with slightly more responsible journalists who could have arbitrated what would be useful for the public to know a little more judiciously (I like Greenwald, but he can be unreasonable sometimes). However, on the whole I think it was for the good. I think its important to remember that he didn't have a lot of time to act once he started down this road, so I'm sure some hasty decisions were made.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#386

Post by akgerber »

mangeletti wrote: post #376
paulintrognon wrote: post #64

I believe when you wrote "socialist" you meant "authoritarianist"? Please don't mix-up those two concepts

If socialism isn't authoritarian, that means that people can opt out of social benefits, own their own property and things, and not have to pay taxes to cover others' social benefits, right? Without going to jail, right? If not, then I guess we're talking about some form of authoritarianism. To talk about "socialism" in a sense that doesn't break the non-aggression principle (necessary for non-authoritarianism), you…

If capitalism isn't authoritarian, that means people can opt out of state application of property rights to land, right? Without going to jail or getting shot, right?

Re: Pardon Snowden

#387

Post by tptacek »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #365
forgotpwtomain wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Got to suggest, emails may not be the way he would communicate concerns. Especially knowing what he did about how email is not private. If you want whistle-blower protections, you need to go through official channels and document document document . I am not saying the US has good protections (obviously it doesn't) - but we have to admit that Snowden isn't the model of someone that tried to go through the proper ch…

If you want to disappear without a trace, just use email inside NSA to criticize the NSA and suggest you might be a whistleblower. To get protection, you have to survive first.

"Disappear without a trace"? It's the world's largest IT organization, not the KGB.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#388

Post by TaylorAlexander »

clarkmoody wrote: post #344
captainmuon wrote: post #60

Maybe a naive question, but what would the risk be for me to sign this? I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Increased scrutiny from the IRS (which should have nothing to do with this, but "they" might say hell why not?)? Inability to get security clearances in future? Being target…

> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... The United States government has done an excellent bit of propaganda to convince the bulk of the public that they are the most free people on earth. We salute the flag and sing the national anthem at games. We have the presidents' pictures on the walls of our classrooms. We chant "USA" at political rallies. But the government of the United State…

Noam Chomsky talks a lot about "Manufacturing Consent" (he wrote a book with this title). He says that in a democratic society you can't use force to control people, so you have to control them by controlling attitudes an opinions instead.

It works well, and the people of the United States are heavily controlled by the elite, who in this case are the corporations and the media companies they control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG5YTEOWCpE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kusAX4Th4N8

Re: Pardon Snowden

#389

Post by kkotak »

Can Obama really pardon Snowdon? If so, I'd think that he can be arrested again for something or the other by the next power.

Re: Pardon Snowden

#390

Post by kordless »

clarkmoody wrote: post #344
captainmuon wrote: post #60

Maybe a naive question, but what would the risk be for me to sign this? I wonder if I (a US citizen) might get trouble the next time at the border? Or get a higher score in some database, that combined with other things might get me into trouble? Increased scrutiny from the IRS (which should have nothing to do with this, but "they" might say hell why not?)? Inability to get security clearances in future? Being target…

> A mode of thought I would expect in socialist countries, not the US... The United States government has done an excellent bit of propaganda to convince the bulk of the public that they are the most free people on earth. We salute the flag and sing the national anthem at games. We have the presidents' pictures on the walls of our classrooms. We chant "USA" at political rallies. But the government of the United State…

I think you are mistaking the resulting meta-consciousness created from the game theory in society and government with individual's based consciousness and some internal intent to deceive. While I would agree the government may try to deceive us, it does so by formally rationalizing government individual's actions as needed to "protect" us from threats. There is likely not one or two people "plotting" out what is happening. It's more probable that something like the angry meme phenomenon[1] has taken root in our government and is now attempting to isolate itself from harm. I think this came about because we tend to become fearful about things that may happen if we don't do X, Y and Z to stop them before they happen and those X, Y and Z things are now hard coded into our government and affecting the game theory around it. As a result, you get a meta-govt-conscious thing acting irrationally and making everyone very nervous as a result.

Or as Gene Belcher put it, "Everything is randomness and chaos."

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc

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