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Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

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Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#271

Post by DashRattlesnake »

mattmanser wrote: post #260
toomuchtodo wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should treat student loan debt like any other debt. We should! There's no asset to secure the debt, so just mark the trade line as unpaid/collections and have it be a black mark for 7 years. If Congress isn't going to fix this, Millenials can max out unsecured credit, pay off their student loans, and then go bankrupt on the unsecured debt; 7-10 years of bad credit is better than the federal government pursuing y…

7 years for a bad decision made when you were 18? That seems incredibly harsh. Then again, you Americans really don't believe in rehabilitation do you.

Do other countries allow people to declare bankruptcy and discharge their debt without consequences?

The 7 year black mark is no one wanting to loan you money because you've shown you won't pay it back, and it's 7 years because the government says it can't be longer. It's not anything truly harsh like prison sentence or anything.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#272

Post by chumich1 »

morgante wrote: post #222
chumich1 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should we be expecting the average 17-year old to be make sound financial decisions? Especially given how much money is involved.

Yes, we should. The average college freshman is 18 years old. If you're old enough to drive a car, join the army, or be charged as an adult, you're old enough to realize that paying tens of thousands of dollars for a degree in musical theater isn't a great idea. It's not rocket science. There are tons of resources online to help you figure out which degrees and schools are good value.

Yes, I agree it would be great if all 17/18 year-olds were able to sift through the marketing BS of school PR departments and the societal pressures to go to college, but it's increasingly obvious that they aren't making good decisions. I'm not convinced free college is the best solution either, but it seems you don't have much empathy for those without the same perception ability as you. I thought I was making the right decision, but now I'm stuck with 2k/mo for 8 years. I'm a bit bitter, yes...

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#273

Post by dragonwriter »

dredmorbius wrote: post #251
imgabe wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would seriously keep people in jail for marijuana charges after marijuana was legalized? If a mistake is made, remedy the mistake. The government made a mistake in providing a glut of cheap money and prohibiting the borrowers from discharging the debt in bankruptcy. They need to fix their mistake by undoing that. What you're proposing is like abolishing slavery, except for everyone who is currently a slave. "Sorr…

That description bears similarities to how slavery was constrained in the US: The international slave trade was abolished in 1800, but existing slaves, and their children , could still be kept, bought, and sold, until 1863.

> The international slave trade was abolished in 1800, but existing slaves, and their children, could still be kept, bought, and sold, until 1863.

1865 (with the ratification of the 13th Amendment), actually.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#274

Post by Haven_Monahan »

zeveb wrote: post #263
morgante wrote: post #176

Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? I made the choice to go to a slightly less prestigious school so I wouldn't have to go into debt for college. I also worked all through college to pay for my expenses. Should I now be punished for that decision? Why should we make people's financial mistakes consequence-free? I think the government should get out…

> Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? Not just that: this is, ultimately, a giveaway to the academic classes, who have lucked into the business of selling things to unwise consumers spending someone else's money. When these loans are forgiven (let's not fool ourselves: they will be), the federal government will have moved $1.3 trillion into the cof…

This. This. THIS.

Federally-backed student loans, undischargeable and given to all and sundry, to be spent wherever on whatever, is a gigantic short in the moral-hazard circuit.

I would throw an actual party for any dictator in the US who would do to the colleges what Henry VIII did to the monasteries.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#275

Post by friendlygrammar »

the_watcher wrote: post #270
friendlygrammar wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>neo-socialist This isn't a word and Norway isn't socialist.

It has a Wikipedia page, a Wiktionary page, and copious references to it by well known publications.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neosocialism

Clearly the two "well known" publications (the most preeminent Marxist journals) listed in that wikipedia article and the fact that the wikipedia article's definition of neo socialism has absolutely nothing to do with Norways economic model point to the fact that the parent comment definitely didn't make up that word out of thin air.

Norway is not socialist, neosocialist, or whatever dumb made up "socialism" you people try to come up with.

Also something having a wiki page on any website and being used in a couple of journals does not make something a term/word. It only indicates that someone wants it to be a term/word.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#276

Post by jazzyk »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #126
BenElgar wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea of offering loans only for 'vocational' degrees is extremely damaging. It leads to people taking 'Software Engineering' degrees rather than computer science or maths or physics when really these less directed degrees generally allow people to explore what they are really most passionate about. The idea of a university is not a place where one goes to get a piece of paper that certifies one as compete…

- university is a place where people should go to learn about things that interest them and inspire them in the company of other like-minded people whilst simultaneously growing as an individual. Sounds like a fun luxury good. Why should we subsidize such a luxury good and encourage 25-50% of the population to consume it? Should we also subsidize luxury goods enjoyed by other subcultures, e.g. video games, muscle car…

There is a big elephant in the room here - the terrible state of high school education in the US. In many (advanced) countries in the world you can be reasonably educated/knowledgeable with a high school diploma - Kant and Hegel (and Confucius and Buddha :-)) are discussed in classes.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#277

Post by nstj »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #180
morgante wrote: post #176

Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? I made the choice to go to a slightly less prestigious school so I wouldn't have to go into debt for college. I also worked all through college to pay for my expenses. Should I now be punished for that decision? Why should we make people's financial mistakes consequence-free? I think the government should get out…

TL;DR The health of the economy is more important than your moral high ground. Same reason we let people walk away from homes (or not walk away, simply not be able to afford them), but we'll still give them a mortgage 3 years after their foreclosure; the economy needs the monetary velocity to survive.

What does this have to do with the velocity of money? If the students continue to pay off their debt then the money flows to their creditors, who will use put it to work in the economy. If the debt is forgiven then it won't go to their creditors and will instead go to those who had student loans who will similarly spend it.

Is there another reason that forgiving student loans improves the health of an economy?

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#278

Post by yummyfajitas »

yequalsx wrote: post #258
yummyfajitas wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be more precise, what I meant is that both should only be subsidize to whatever degree they create external benefits. I.e., if a physics degree has $5k external benefit and a women's studies degree $5, then the physics degree deserves 1000x more subsidies. And once you factor in the harms caused by signalling, it's far from clear it's even a net positive. The benefits of an educated populace are manifest and, I be…

The external benefits are quite clear to me. That they are not clear to you suggests to me that nothing I write or say will change your mind. So what's the point of asking me to list them? Are you merely trying to see if I understand the concept of a external benefits or genuinely trying know what possible external benefit there could be with someone being provided a subsidized education? I think you can think of som…

Are you merely trying to see if I understand the concept of a external benefits or genuinely trying know what possible external benefit there could be with someone being provided a subsidized education?

I'm trying to know what external benefits you think exist and why you think they are uniform across all fields of study, which is a much stronger claim that you made. I cannot think of any such benefits.

E.g., one might hypothesize that people in college develop useful skills that benefit others in a manner they cannot capture as wages. But it's a little crazy to suggest that a women's studies major develops those skills to the same degree as a nurse.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#279

Post by duaneb »

zeveb wrote: post #263
morgante wrote: post #176

Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? I made the choice to go to a slightly less prestigious school so I wouldn't have to go into debt for college. I also worked all through college to pay for my expenses. Should I now be punished for that decision? Why should we make people's financial mistakes consequence-free? I think the government should get out…

> Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? Not just that: this is, ultimately, a giveaway to the academic classes, who have lucked into the business of selling things to unwise consumers spending someone else's money. When these loans are forgiven (let's not fool ourselves: they will be), the federal government will have moved $1.3 trillion into the cof…

> to the academic classes

The academic dream is that everyone deserves the same education. This is obviously not a reality, but you should at least acknowledge the middle ground is disliked by the "academic class" and the "non-academic class" alike: it's expensive as hell and we still have idiots running the world.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#280

Post by duaneb »

icehawk219 wrote: post #10

Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". The grand irony in all of this is that the people who did go on to become plumbers, ele…

Non-salaried jobs are not stable, it's not about "good"ness. If you want to provide, find a salaried job. If you want to weather recessions, find a salaried job. If you want to have a career as opposed to a job, start with a salaried position and work your way up.

At least this is how I was raised. I don't think I have an opinion myself aside from enjoying the idea that I'll likely have the same job in a year I do now.

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