Earlier quoted context omitted.
And the strange thing is nobody is actually preventing people who dump billions of ton of plastic in ocean with this much vigour.
Is there a way to pull that out of the ocean? Some kind of sifter on the front of a ship? Has anyone tried it?
Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?
41–50 of 56 posts
Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?
#42This is a really good wiki article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_fertilization There's a few key ideas here: The limiting factor in plankton growth is iron. So we can hit it with other things, the plankton needs more iron to incorporate into chloroplasts to grow. Algal/plankton blooms can be toxic from the chemicals produced, but they are usually toxic because they deplete oxygen in the environment. I…
I read in that wiki article that the data from Russ George's efforts discussed in the OP article - that all that data was opened to the public in 2014 - but I can't find the data so far. Do you know where it might be found?
This is what I could find. http://www.whoi.edu/ocb-fert/page.do?pid=38315
Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was unaware that cane toads, in any number, could have any effect on climate. "...and that is how we know the earth to be banana-shaped..."
First of all, I think you are missing my point. These kinds of experiments (i.e. the introduction of variables to "improve" an environment) have a long and sordid history. The Cane Toad is a cautionary tale: it was supposed to eat pests, but instead it took over large swaths of Australia and caused devastation. What this person is trying to do is seed plankton. Plankton, as anyone who grew up near a coast can attest,…
Unlike the cane toad though, iron can't reproduce. It seems to me entirely possible to study the effects of iron fertilization in a controlled manner, and indeed to tune how it's done for maximum benefit and minimum risk. It seems like that's what George is advocating.
Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?
#44I just don't understand why everyone refuses to study the results (at least, from what the article seems to convey). Yeah, it was short-sighted and illegal and probably dangerous in ways that are currently inexplicable -- but isn't that the whole point? Go ahead and arrest the guy, or sue him, whatever -- but scientists should not pass up the opportunity to study the effects of an actual geoengineering intervention.
The global warming crowd is often linked to an anti-industrial puritanism. They see geo-engineering that deals with their supposed harm mechanism while simultaneously allowing fossil fuel based economic development as "cheating" and ipso facto immoral, like chugging liquor and avoiding the hangover.
Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?
#45A couple of notes, this is from 2014 and the results of ocean fertilization are better understood today. The interesting thing for me over the controversy when this was being done was that it reiterated the concern that nobody feels they know how to direct climate change. As a result the only action they can endorse is "affecting it less" by reducing our own carbon emissions. This guy is taking it from the other side…
The problem is that now AGW is on a moral footing, with oil companies in the role tobacco companies were in 20ish to 30ish years ago.
That's an artifact of the propagandistic nature of the actors in the issue - on both sides. I believe they do that because it better meets their goals. They have a need to win. And it's not an imagined need - the issue has slipped into an adversarial shape.
The article exposes this well - people are well-bifurcated around two poles - 1) it's the end of the world or 2) it's no big deal.
Maybe that is right, but I rather expect there's something else in play ( because the timescales are fairly long and we're bounded by out ability to learn ) , and that the more productive approach will be more moderate and possibly more experimental. Taking the position of "no, everyone must modify their behavior" does not seem the most reasonable of all possible positions.
But I am just interested in it as a problem to be solved, not as a means of winning something.
IMO, all the furor seems more likely to produce heat than light. It's slightly crank-ey but I still enjoyed Chrichton's "State of Fear" immensely.
Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?
#46This is a really good wiki article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_fertilization There's a few key ideas here: The limiting factor in plankton growth is iron. So we can hit it with other things, the plankton needs more iron to incorporate into chloroplasts to grow. Algal/plankton blooms can be toxic from the chemicals produced, but they are usually toxic because they deplete oxygen in the environment. I…
I read in that wiki article that the data from Russ George's efforts discussed in the OP article - that all that data was opened to the public in 2014 - but I can't find the data so far. Do you know where it might be found?
Just follow the WP links.
"Researchers, interested organizations or individuals are welcome to use our scientific data library for legitimate research endeavours. This data is available free of charge, however we do ask that a memorandum of understanding is executed for access privileges to our data. Please send us a message using the Contact Us form and state the nature of your request."
http://www.haidasalmonrestoration.com/index.php/science/scie...
Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
Cosmetic companies include microbeads in many products. These end up in the sea. The plastic soaks up some pollutants, and is also eaten by fish. It makes its way into the human food chain. It's a serious problem. Individual consumers didn't really know that they were dumping plastic into the ocean. The manufacturing companies did know, absolutely, that they were dumping hundreds of billions of these microbeads. Acry…
> Cosmetic companies include microbeads in many products. Those are now banned, no?
In the US, maybe. About to be banned in the UK. I have no idea what's banned anywhere else.
Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?
#48I just don't understand why everyone refuses to study the results (at least, from what the article seems to convey). Yeah, it was short-sighted and illegal and probably dangerous in ways that are currently inexplicable -- but isn't that the whole point? Go ahead and arrest the guy, or sue him, whatever -- but scientists should not pass up the opportunity to study the effects of an actual geoengineering intervention.
I'm flabbergasted at this, as well. It talks in the article about the attitude this guy takes, "Don't say what SHOULD happen, look at the data, let the data talk to you and tell you what's going on!" With the caveat that we must be cautious not to use statistical analysis of the data to lie outright, I want to say: Any attitude that does not at least INCLUDE the one Russ George advocates about LETTING THE DATA TELL Y…
Politicizing science is always bad. But James Hansen seemed quite determined to do that. It's even possible to note that NASA has an interest in Mars missions.... although that seems extremely farfetched. But who knows?
If iron seeding works and causes no calamity we can't handle, we'd be derned fools not to do it at some point, assuming we need to of course.
Then again, what is the preferred equilibrium for the planet and how do we know that? There wasn't always widespread environmentalism and I've heard the idea that environmentalism in its present form emerged only after computers became more widespread ( from "All Watched Over By Machines..." by Adam Curtis.)
Is that crackpottery or is it a salient observation? I can't even tell any more.
Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?
#49A couple of notes, this is from 2014 and the results of ocean fertilization are better understood today. The interesting thing for me over the controversy when this was being done was that it reiterated the concern that nobody feels they know how to direct climate change. As a result the only action they can endorse is "affecting it less" by reducing our own carbon emissions. This guy is taking it from the other side…
Another interesting issue is that not all nations aren't going to agree on a point "we like." Island nations might want to fight for every .1 degree C. Russia and Canada might say fuck it, warming helps us. W Europe who is fairly shielded again major change by ocean currents might say that nobody should geo-engineer because it's not worth the risks (because their risk is lower than others).
I agree with your analysis, except for some of Western Europe. In North-Western europe, Britain and Scandanavia greatly benefit from the Atlantic jet stream being fairly consistently aimed a little farther north; it gives them a warmer climate. We think that global warming has been destabilizing jet streams, and it's making weather have great variation in North America and Northern Europe. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-26023166
Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
And the strange thing is nobody is actually preventing people who dump billions of ton of plastic in ocean with this much vigour.
It's millions of tons a year, not billions. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/02/150212-ocean...
More details on that study here: http://jambeck.engr.uga.edu/landplasticinput (10.1126/science.1260352)
Total worldwide production of plastics looks to be about 250 million tons, and they are estimating that about 8 million tons per year make it into the oceans. From the paper, but not the gloss, is that fact that China is by far the leading offender in this, followed by Indonesia, Philippines, and Sri Lanka. India is in 10th place, and the US in 20th. Coastal Europe combined is about the same as the US.