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Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?

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Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?

#31

Post by Fordrus »

zelias wrote: post #5

I just don't understand why everyone refuses to study the results (at least, from what the article seems to convey). Yeah, it was short-sighted and illegal and probably dangerous in ways that are currently inexplicable -- but isn't that the whole point? Go ahead and arrest the guy, or sue him, whatever -- but scientists should not pass up the opportunity to study the effects of an actual geoengineering intervention.

I'm flabbergasted at this, as well. It talks in the article about the attitude this guy takes, "Don't say what SHOULD happen, look at the data, let the data talk to you and tell you what's going on!"

With the caveat that we must be cautious not to use statistical analysis of the data to lie outright, I want to say:

Any attitude that does not at least INCLUDE the one Russ George advocates about LETTING THE DATA TELL YOU what is going on is ANATHEMA to science, Western Society, and human life in general.

Seriously.

Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?

#32

Post by neffy »

aetherson wrote: post #26

So, look, if you believe that there is a large chance that climate change will be a global catastrophe in the next few decades -- and there are a lot of people who claim to believe that -- then you should be willing to compromise on other beliefs/other risks to forestall or mitigate that catastrophe.

I suspect the real issue is the "It could be good for Ontario" problem. There is no global climate change catastrophe, rather there are a lot of local changes some of which are completely catastrophic, as in good bye Bangladesh, and some of which are improvements - shorter northern hemisphere winters, longer growing seasons etc.

Flip the switch, because if the fresh water influx in the North Atlantic shuts down the global conveyer currents, it won´t be warming we´re looking at, and it´s great news for India, and Bangladesh, and a catastrophe in the Northern Hemisphere, Europe in particular.

A great empire is always about to fall...

Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?

#33

Post by asbestas »

linksnapzz wrote: post #4
asbestas wrote: post #2

Chances are, he will do more harm than good. This field does not have great track record. See, for example, the introduction of the Cane Toad to Australia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cane_toad#Australia

I was unaware that cane toads, in any number, could have any effect on climate. "...and that is how we know the earth to be banana-shaped..."

First of all, I think you are missing my point. These kinds of experiments (i.e. the introduction of variables to "improve" an environment) have a long and sordid history. The Cane Toad is a cautionary tale: it was supposed to eat pests, but instead it took over large swaths of Australia and caused devastation.

What this person is trying to do is seed plankton. Plankton, as anyone who grew up near a coast can attest, commit mass suicide as they over-bloom. This is called the red tide and it caused me to spend a lot of evenings after beach days itchy with watery eyes. It also kills enormous numbers of fish, whales, jellyfish, etc.

EDIT: I can't reply, but I saw your comment that "unlike the cane toad, iron can't reproduce." Unfortunately, you're in error. Iron, like a lot of metals and toxins, can bioaccumulate in the food chain, pass from prey to predator and from gestating mother to fetus, and persist in ways that cause all kinds of havoc [1]

[1]http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0147651311...

Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?

#34

Post by Tloewald »

civilian wrote: post #22

This is a really good wiki article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_fertilization There's a few key ideas here: The limiting factor in plankton growth is iron. So we can hit it with other things, the plankton needs more iron to incorporate into chloroplasts to grow. Algal/plankton blooms can be toxic from the chemicals produced, but they are usually toxic because they deplete oxygen in the environment. I…

Also: it sounds less horrible than pumping sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere.

Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?

#35

Post by aetherson »

neffy wrote: post #32
aetherson wrote: post #26

So, look, if you believe that there is a large chance that climate change will be a global catastrophe in the next few decades -- and there are a lot of people who claim to believe that -- then you should be willing to compromise on other beliefs/other risks to forestall or mitigate that catastrophe.

I suspect the real issue is the "It could be good for Ontario" problem. There is no global climate change catastrophe, rather there are a lot of local changes some of which are completely catastrophic, as in good bye Bangladesh, and some of which are improvements - shorter northern hemisphere winters, longer growing seasons etc. Flip the switch, because if the fresh water influx in the North Atlantic shuts down the g…

That's not necessarily a crazy opinion, but it's not a mainstream one.

The mainstream opinions seem to be:

1. Climate change isn't real or isn't a big deal.

2. Climate change will be a global catastrophe or even lead to human extinction.

Now, it would be reasonable for the people in group 1 to complain about geoengineering experiments, but actually they don't seem to care. And the people in group 2 are pretty much to a man saying, "Climate change is a huge problem and the only solution that we are willing to entertain at all is cuts to carbon production with no offsetting energy production except through solar and wind -- even though these are clearly not politically feasible in large enough amounts to make the difference, and indeed even though there's growing evidence that even unrealistically massive cuts won't solve the problem."

This suggests that there are some unstated facets to the beliefs of people in group 2.

Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?

#36

Post by protomyth »

mayank10j wrote: post #16
zelias wrote: post #5

I just don't understand why everyone refuses to study the results (at least, from what the article seems to convey). Yeah, it was short-sighted and illegal and probably dangerous in ways that are currently inexplicable -- but isn't that the whole point? Go ahead and arrest the guy, or sue him, whatever -- but scientists should not pass up the opportunity to study the effects of an actual geoengineering intervention.

And the strange thing is nobody is actually preventing people who dump billions of ton of plastic in ocean with this much vigour.

Is there a way to pull that out of the ocean? Some kind of sifter on the front of a ship? Has anyone tried it?

Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?

#37

Post by bsder »

DanBC wrote: post #24
civilian wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is "dumping" plastic on the ocean. It's million of litterers and maritime equipment malfunctions.

Cosmetic companies include microbeads in many products. These end up in the sea. The plastic soaks up some pollutants, and is also eaten by fish. It makes its way into the human food chain. It's a serious problem. Individual consumers didn't really know that they were dumping plastic into the ocean. The manufacturing companies did know, absolutely, that they were dumping hundreds of billions of these microbeads. Acry…

> Cosmetic companies include microbeads in many products.

Those are now banned, no?

Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?

#38

Post by rhino369 »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #29

A couple of notes, this is from 2014 and the results of ocean fertilization are better understood today. The interesting thing for me over the controversy when this was being done was that it reiterated the concern that nobody feels they know how to direct climate change. As a result the only action they can endorse is "affecting it less" by reducing our own carbon emissions. This guy is taking it from the other side…

Another interesting issue is that not all nations aren't going to agree on a point "we like." Island nations might want to fight for every .1 degree C. Russia and Canada might say fuck it, warming helps us. W Europe who is fairly shielded again major change by ocean currents might say that nobody should geo-engineer because it's not worth the risks (because their risk is lower than others).

Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?

#39

Post by Fordrus »

civilian wrote: post #22

This is a really good wiki article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_fertilization There's a few key ideas here: The limiting factor in plankton growth is iron. So we can hit it with other things, the plankton needs more iron to incorporate into chloroplasts to grow. Algal/plankton blooms can be toxic from the chemicals produced, but they are usually toxic because they deplete oxygen in the environment. I…

I read in that wiki article that the data from Russ George's efforts discussed in the OP article - that all that data was opened to the public in 2014 - but I can't find the data so far. Do you know where it might be found?

Re: Can Anyone Stop the Man Who Will Try Just About Anything to Stop Climate Change?

#40

Post by dalke »

astrodust wrote: post #14
linksnapzz wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was unaware that cane toads, in any number, could have any effect on climate. "...and that is how we know the earth to be banana-shaped..."

Rabbits have completely transformed the Australian continent, one so dramatic you can see the effects from space. ( http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/181383/view ) Cane toads have a smaller but measurable effect since they utterly ruin entire ecosystems. If you think it's impossible for a single organism to have an effect on climate you're mistaken. Wolves, once reintroduced to Yellowstone, have changed the entire pa…

http://warnercnr.colostate.edu/ess-news-and-events/news-head... - "Conservationists Crying Wolf? New Study Shows Yellowstone’s Ecosystem Dynamics More Complex than Trophic Cascade"

"Our results contribute to a growing body of evidence showing that changes in growth of woody deciduous plants following the reintroduction of wolves cannot be explained by the trophic cascade model alone"

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