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Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

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Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trades are difficult to completely automate but there are similar impacts from deskilling and moving work into factories. When I say deskilling, I'm talking about creating products that reduce the amount of skill required to do a task. This increases the pool of labor competing for the job. It also often increases how much a single person can get done in a given amount of time. Compare PEX and copper pipe fitting…

Yep, the laser cutter I operate can do in a day what it was taking 4 apprentices to do in a week. And it can do things no human could possibly do with hand tools. The next thing we'd like to get us something like the Voortman V808[1], that thing should cut or labour input requirements by 50% or more. 1. https://youtu.be/Tk1un34l81E

That's the interesting thing. It's the opposite of deskilling that the parent was talking about.

Instead of removing skilled jobs and increasing a job pool of less skilled ones, tech can increase efficiency of master craftsman to the point where there is no need for the less skilled/experienced apprentices, thereby compressing the job pool instead of expanding it.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trades are difficult to completely automate but there are similar impacts from deskilling and moving work into factories. When I say deskilling, I'm talking about creating products that reduce the amount of skill required to do a task. This increases the pool of labor competing for the job. It also often increases how much a single person can get done in a given amount of time. Compare PEX and copper pipe fitting…

Yep, the laser cutter I operate can do in a day what it was taking 4 apprentices to do in a week. And it can do things no human could possibly do with hand tools. The next thing we'd like to get us something like the Voortman V808[1], that thing should cut or labour input requirements by 50% or more. 1. https://youtu.be/Tk1un34l81E

[deleted]

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#153
College is just all sorts of disgusting in the US right now. I support relief, but I'm sure that we're going to have to see a massive crash in the system before anything happens.

I managed to go to a small public university after the tuition hike but before the Great Fees Gouging. I'd probably have escaped with $5,000 less in debt if I had started with my state's (Georgia's Hope) merit based scholarship instead of having to build up 10 semester hours totally on Federal UnSubsidized Loans the first year.

At that point, used Ebay books could run you well past $1,000 a semester. Hope only gave you a $150 for books. Hope also did not cover fees. Those started at about $800 every semester when I enrolled. My 4th year, they had hit well past $2,500 per semester. Included in that was $150 to build a new student recreation center that I would never use since it wasn't even being built yet.

The amount of hustle I had to do just to escape that school with minimal debt was insane. My overloaded schedule (because semester hours past 12 didn't increase your tuition or fees) meant I needed a job that let me do study or homework while working. So typical service jobs off-campus were out of the question. My year basically was applying for summer retail jobs, lying my face off during the interview that I was going to stay on past the summer, and then of course quitting. I'm basically black-listed from several retailers for quitting for this reason. Christmas was always easier because those jobs are naturally seasonal.

During school, I'd tutor various core classes under the table. At my university, this was considered quasi-against-the-rules. Tutors were supposed to go through the Student Support Center. They'd pay you hourly minimum wage and set you up with other students for free. Tutors who were students caught not going this route were usually sanctioned by the university and threatened with all sorts of administrative punishments.

Naturally, this was unacceptable to tutors, so we all snuck around advertising by word of mouth and meeting off campus. I mean, when I can easily pull $100 a session as the only person willing to try to cram Plato into your brain, why would I go through the SSC? Calculus was a bit harder because there was more competition, so that usually ran about $60 to start. Once I had kids getting their B's and telling their friends, I was able to pull $100. I ran a group rate for a Fraternity that was a flat $350 a month.

I lived off campus, because rent on a 3 bedroom, 2 bath was $950/month plus utilities. Speaking of hustle, keeping those bedrooms stocked with roommates was it's own drama. Kicking roommates who fell behind was even worse. The lease was in my name, because most places I went to rent a room were on 6 month leases and headed home every summer. I wanted something more permanent since I was staying in town year round.

All said, I managed to escape with just over $30,000 in debt. That's tuition, fees, and about $10,000 a year to supplement all my other income. I hit a job immediately and started burning it down as fast as possible. I landed a better job with nice, $10,000 yearly bonuses and finished murdering it.

This was right as the next big wave of inflation hit higher education. Now? I went back and poked some of my social circle in that town. Getting out without $60,000 in debt is basically impossible. If you live outside of a 10 mile radius of the campus, you are required to live in the dorms your Freshman year. Literally every course uses some sort of book with an online component. To access that component, you have to buy the book new to get a code. The university regularly charges current students fees to raise money for buildings that won't be built for 5 years. They recently charged a parking fee, and then made all lots on campus hourly paid parking. The lot that parking fee is for? It's about a 4 minute walk off campus. Good luck if your class is on the other side of the campus.

Part time students are actually charged the exact same fees, but are not allowed access to several benefits of of the campus. This is disguised as "discounts" for full time students at on campus food vendors, a higher co-pay for health services (physical and mental), and being barred from the free tutors (that no one can use because we won't work for them) Student Resource Center.

The problem isn't just the loans, it's a deep cultural problem in the administration of these universities. University presidents down to the department chairs are held to metrics that lead to perverse incentives. They must milk students of every dollar possible so they feed the enrollment machine. This leads to admitting students that probably shouldn't be admitted. This leads them to dumb down courses to graduate students who have no business having a degree to feed the graduation rate.

TL;DR: The US higher education system is abusive and terrible. Avoid at all costs.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#154
post #108

The only recent grads (within 5 years) with student debt in my circles who could afford and have bought a house recently are: 1. Doctor & Finance couple with combined income $400,000+/year 2. Pharmacist & Finance couple with combined income $200,000+/year 3. Science Research & Quant(finance) couple with combined income $300,000+/year Interestingly - all have finance or medical field/science exposure.. The rest are re…

> I dont see who will support real estate prices going forward. China.

> China.

On the surface this seems hyperbolic but its true. The area I am at has seen wealthy Chinese investors buying up property in the new developments and then leaving it to their children to manage. It's almost impossible to buy a house here in the sub $300k range due to the rapid buy up and flipping they're doing. Most of them don't sell either - they rent, leaving people here in perpetual rent cycle without the ability to own property in a decent area.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#155

Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". The grand irony in all of this is that the people who did go on to become plumbers, ele…

>> Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". I think another part of it is that even low level office jobs now require some sort…

Education is not job training. And a good education should prepare you to switch careers.

Comparing higher education to job training is especially damaging in a fast paced economy with new fields and jobs popping up all the time.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#156
post #100

Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". The grand irony in all of this is that the people who did go on to become plumbers, ele…

They aren't good jobs. The average salary for plumbers is around $50-55k or so, right around the median for the US. Ok, but certainly not good. For roofers and mechanics, you're significantly below the median around $35k, basically in poverty especially if you have a family. I don't think encouraging people away from education is the problem when salaries are this low (poverty levels).

Most of these jobs are not salaried and can have significant opportunity for overtime at time and a half or more.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#157
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying off your debt early also builds really good financial habits which will help in the future. You learn to live below your means, make a budget, etc

If they're Federal loans with a often below-inflation interest rate, the actual good financial habit is often to not pay it off, and instead amass a) an emergency fund and b) sock the rest into retirement via an index fund or something similar.

As others point out, it's really unusual to have federal loans as low as 2.5% (as you mention below). Most are considerably more. Are you sure that's a federal loan?

It's also worth noting that 2.5% is still higher than inflation in the last couple years.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#159

Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". The grand irony in all of this is that the people who did go on to become plumbers, ele…

Not only that, but "tradespeople" start earning right after high school. That four-five year head start is more meaningful than people realize. You could be making a down payment on owning your residence while your friends are still undergrads. Nothing wins in investing like being early.

Conversely, leverage allows you to make more money, and if you can use education as leverage to put you into a six-figure-a-year career trajectory, that's going to pay off.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#160
post #4

It's such a weight off of the shoulders to have paid my wife and my student loans off a few months ago. Instead of the 20 or 30yr plan we put every extra dollar towards it and paid it off in 3.5 years. It feels fantastic! It's bizarre that student debt has become the norm and students who have potentially low-earning majors such as History are still given similar amounts of money from banks as a CS major.

I thought I could pay mine off in 2 or 3 years of graduating, but ended up taking about 5. I paid my car off about a month ago, so I have zero loans!

I've been entertaining the idea of buying a house in my neighborhood. This town never had real estate inflation and bubble, because of rust belt economics. $150,000 should buy a nice place.

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