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Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

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Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#121

Post by flubert »

readhn wrote: post #108

The only recent grads (within 5 years) with student debt in my circles who could afford and have bought a house recently are: 1. Doctor & Finance couple with combined income $400,000+/year 2. Pharmacist & Finance couple with combined income $200,000+/year 3. Science Research & Quant(finance) couple with combined income $300,000+/year Interestingly - all have finance or medical field/science exposure.. The rest are re…

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Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#122

Post by logfromblammo »

gxs wrote: post #97

I'm really torn on this for the same reason I'm torn on what to do with the people in jail for marijuana offenses: On the one hand, yes what's happening is wrong. On the other hand, you CHOSE to go into debt knowing that you would have to repay it after you graduated. Just like people who CHOSE to deal marijuana KNEW it is illegal. Disagreeing with the law doesn't entitle you to break it. Similarly, disagreeing with…

You are correct. Disagreeing with the law obligates you to break it. Or at least it does according to Thoreau, Jefferson, Gandhi, ML King Jr, et al.

But the difference between a law and a promissory note is that the legislature didn't get your explicit approval before passing the law. The promissory note has your signature on it, under a promise that you made to pay a certain amount at a certain time in exchange for valuable consideration.

The note is a contract, and you can make any contract you like. But we do have rules for the types of contracts that the state will help to enforce. The parties to the contract have to be competent, and the contract can't force anyone to do anything illegal, and everybody has to understand what they are agreeing to. If it was, indeed, a "shitty choice" to take a loan that you couldn't reasonably pay back, there may be an argument there that the contract was lopsided and unconscionable from the start, and being forced to repay it on the original terms would be rewarding bad behavior on the part of the lender.

Defaulting on a loan because you now disagree with the terms is less ethical than dealing weed because you disagree with cannabis prohibition. You should really support clemency for nonviolent drug offenses before considering forgiveness of student loan debts. One is a matter of being forced to live under the (somewhat arbitrary and capricious) edicts of the powerful, and the other is about breaking promises after already realizing the benefits from making them.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#123

Post by phil21 »

readhn wrote: post #108

The only recent grads (within 5 years) with student debt in my circles who could afford and have bought a house recently are: 1. Doctor & Finance couple with combined income $400,000+/year 2. Pharmacist & Finance couple with combined income $200,000+/year 3. Science Research & Quant(finance) couple with combined income $300,000+/year Interestingly - all have finance or medical field/science exposure.. The rest are re…

While I agree with your sentiment in general, do you really think it's normal to be in a house 5 years after graduating? That's still "first steps of my career" phase. Completely unheard of even when I was growing up where I'm from - you would have been seen as doing very well to own a home in your mid/late-20's.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#124

Post by pault »

talmand wrote: post #74
douche wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's much harder emotionally and financially to quit your job to travel the world or start your own company Sorry, I have to laugh. This is the most HN thing I've read today. It's a tremendous privilege to have the option of quitting your job to travel the world, rather than the fear of being arbitrarily laid off, and failing to put food on the table or lose your house. My redneck might be sticking out this morning…

I didn't have student loans, have always had decent paying steady work (except for that time around 9/11), and have never felt financially secured enough to quit a job to travel the world. I have moved around the country for work quite a bit, so I do feel fairly well-traveled. At least in the continental US.

I moved to Brazil with $2,000 and no job. Granted, I got lucky finding clients that would allow me to work remotely, but you don't need a fortune to drop out of the rat race. Things work out. If you have friends and family and aren't mentally ill, the chances of you ending up on the street are pretty low. You may have to eat fried flour to keep from going hungry, but it's never as bad as you think it will be (speaking from personal experience). The hardest part is taking the leap. I would have backed out if I hadn't already told everyone I knew that I was leaving, but here I am eight years later, still living abroad and making a comfortable living. If you are motivated and industrious you will find a way to thrive in any situation.

Edit: If you are supporting children, the above advice may not apply.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#125

Post by harryh »

icehawk219 wrote: post #10

Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". The grand irony in all of this is that the people who did go on to become plumbers, ele…

Your anecdotes are interesting but the data shows that the college wage premium is as high as it has ever been.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#126

Post by yummyfajitas »

BenElgar wrote: post #58
k-mcgrady wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". I think another part of it is that even low level office jobs now require some sort…

I think the idea of offering loans only for 'vocational' degrees is extremely damaging. It leads to people taking 'Software Engineering' degrees rather than computer science or maths or physics when really these less directed degrees generally allow people to explore what they are really most passionate about. The idea of a university is not a place where one goes to get a piece of paper that certifies one as compete…

- university is a place where people should go to learn about things that interest them and inspire them in the company of other like-minded people whilst simultaneously growing as an individual.

Sounds like a fun luxury good. Why should we subsidize such a luxury good and encourage 25-50% of the population to consume it?

Should we also subsidize luxury goods enjoyed by other subcultures, e.g. video games, muscle cars or strip clubs? If not, why not?

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#127

Post by flubert »

phil21 wrote: post #123
readhn wrote: post #108

The only recent grads (within 5 years) with student debt in my circles who could afford and have bought a house recently are: 1. Doctor & Finance couple with combined income $400,000+/year 2. Pharmacist & Finance couple with combined income $200,000+/year 3. Science Research & Quant(finance) couple with combined income $300,000+/year Interestingly - all have finance or medical field/science exposure.. The rest are re…

While I agree with your sentiment in general, do you really think it's normal to be in a house 5 years after graduating? That's still "first steps of my career" phase. Completely unheard of even when I was growing up where I'm from - you would have been seen as doing very well to own a home in your mid/late-20's.

Anyone have actual stats on homeownership vs. age? Here's one I was able to dig up, maybe someone's got something better. This seems to say that 21% of people under 25 own a house, and 32% of 25-29's own a house.

http://thereformedbroker.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Scre...

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#128

Post by gnarcoregrizz »

joesmo wrote: post #100
icehawk219 wrote: post #10

Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". The grand irony in all of this is that the people who did go on to become plumbers, ele…

They aren't good jobs. The average salary for plumbers is around $50-55k or so, right around the median for the US. Ok, but certainly not good. For roofers and mechanics, you're significantly below the median around $35k, basically in poverty especially if you have a family. I don't think encouraging people away from education is the problem when salaries are this low (poverty levels).

Hah, i bet its way higher. Anyone that owns their own business like that is probably fudging their income numbers and writing off as much as they can. I wouldn't be surprised if the income was 2-20x higher for established self employed people.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#129

Post by HalcyonicStorm »

santaclaus wrote: post #113
joesmo wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't good jobs. The average salary for plumbers is around $50-55k or so, right around the median for the US. Ok, but certainly not good. For roofers and mechanics, you're significantly below the median around $35k, basically in poverty especially if you have a family. I don't think encouraging people away from education is the problem when salaries are this low (poverty levels).

35K is def not poverty. I managed to get by in Manhattan on less...

pray tell how you managed to do that

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#130

Post by quizzas »

icehawk219 wrote: post #10

Part of the problem is that the last few generations have been told the same thing: blue collar jobs aren't "good" jobs. You need to go to college so you can get a "good" job sitting at a desk because those other jobs are below you. If you take one of those blue collar jobs then you've failed and aren't "achieving your potential". The grand irony in all of this is that the people who did go on to become plumbers, ele…

Contracting trades (electrician, plumbing, HVAC, etc.) make great money. I helped a few friends get in the business; they couldn't find jobs with their ITT tech degrees, so I hooked them up with a few general contractors to make ends meet. Fast forward 10 years, and all three of them run their own crews (HVAC mostly) and easily make $200,000 each. They do work hard, 7 days per week, but love their job and take 30 days off between jobs during peak summer. Hanging around their group, I realize that those who succeed in this area have one thing in common: total commitment to hardwork. Very simple, and something many people have in spades but are applying it in dead end desk jobs.
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