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Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

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Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#81

Post by dv_dt »

forrestthewoods wrote: post #75
dv_dt wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The education market won't fix itself because students are not in a sufficiently secure bargaining position where they (collectively) can make an informed decision that corrects the market.

What? How is the education loan market any different than the automobile or home loan market with respect bargaining position and ability to make an informed decision? Loan issuers are forced to issue loans without regard to the likelihood those loans will be paid back. Someone seeking a computer science degree from Stanford is treated the same as someone getting an English degree from a 4th tier state school. That's…

Well with a car, if it always breaks down, you'll likely buy more cars through your lifetime, and the quality of the product has a feedback loop on the performance of the company. With a house, same thing. Worst case, if it's bad, sell it replace it with something else.

But with education, students have likely never bought a car, or a house, and don't have much background or life experience at this point in their lives and you want them to make a one-time, long-term, investment decision in a non-fungible asset?

Most students only make the decision once and whatever you learn about the school or career not meeting expectations isn't ever applied again. Worse, you don't find out first hand what quality your education really was until after leaving the college. Worst, the decision isn't really couched in terms of a ROI type investment decision (maybe thats changing), but that's certainly not the only factor at play in student school decision.

That's not a good basis for balancing a market.

> Loan issuers are forced to issue loans without regard to the likelihood those loans will be paid back. Private loan issuers aren't forced to do anything. They can always leave the market and invest elsewhere if they cant figure out how the serve the market.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#82

Post by pmiller2 »

tswartz wrote: post #15
NickM wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's bizarre that student debt has become the norm and students who have potentially low-earning majors such as History are still given similar amounts of money from banks as a CS major. Not so bizarre when you consider that student loans are very difficult to get discharged via bankruptcy. The loan issuers don't need to worry so much about whether you'll be able to pay it back or not, because it's more a question…

Yeah that's a very good point. Interesting how they aren't easily discharged via bankruptcy. I may have to do some research on how exactly that got put in place and who was behind it...

https://consumerist.com/2015/03/17/you-cant-discharge-your-s...

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#83

Post by [deleted] »

tswartz wrote: post #15
NickM wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's bizarre that student debt has become the norm and students who have potentially low-earning majors such as History are still given similar amounts of money from banks as a CS major. Not so bizarre when you consider that student loans are very difficult to get discharged via bankruptcy. The loan issuers don't need to worry so much about whether you'll be able to pay it back or not, because it's more a question…

Yeah that's a very good point. Interesting how they aren't easily discharged via bankruptcy. I may have to do some research on how exactly that got put in place and who was behind it...

[deleted]

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#84

Post by [deleted] »

tswartz wrote: post #15
NickM wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's bizarre that student debt has become the norm and students who have potentially low-earning majors such as History are still given similar amounts of money from banks as a CS major. Not so bizarre when you consider that student loans are very difficult to get discharged via bankruptcy. The loan issuers don't need to worry so much about whether you'll be able to pay it back or not, because it's more a question…

Yeah that's a very good point. Interesting how they aren't easily discharged via bankruptcy. I may have to do some research on how exactly that got put in place and who was behind it...

[deleted]

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#85

Post by ceejayoz »

eatbitseveryday wrote: post #80
talmand wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't have student loans, have always had decent paying steady work (except for that time around 9/11), and have never felt financially secured enough to quit a job to travel the world. I have moved around the country for work quite a bit, so I do feel fairly well-traveled. At least in the continental US.

> well-traveled At least colloquially, this term signifies one has been to other countries (or better, other continents) and visited other cultures, immersed in other languages, other governments, other ways of eating, etc. One who stays within a country would not (in my opinion) be "well-traveled", despite the country being enormous. My 2cents.

The US is about the same geographic size as all of Europe and includes many cultures, languages, styles of government, and foods. Hell, just wandering around different parts of NYC ticks your boxes.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#86

Post by jinfiesto »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #79
jinfiesto wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical of not allowing loans for degrees that don't lead to jobs. The fact that a statistical argument can be made, like "Only 30% of music majors have jobs out of school" totally obscures the fact that there are causal factors that determine career success out of school. I don't think the issue is degrees that don't lead to jobs. I think much of the issue is people beginning degrees that they have no business…

I can see your point. Let's take music for example seeing as you majored in it and I am also quite invested in it. I can't think of too many music jobs that require a degree. It tends to be an industry where you work hard, from the bottom and learn as you go or you teach yourself. There are legitimate reasons to study it as a degree but are you really getting $60-100k of value from it? Some people might but even a lo…

Continuing the example, I'd say that at the non top-tier level it's pretty important to have a degree if you want to make more than 60k a year. It's really hard to justify charging more than 20$ an hour to parents of prospective students if you don't have some sort of degree. I'm assuming that most music majors will go on to teach. Granted, this isn't the only thing you need to be successful, but it's a pretty important component. I doubt that anyone who is going to succeed at an instrument could get the information they need from a community college. It sounds elitist, but pedigree is very important in music. The community is not particularly open about sharing information, so very few people (relatively speaking) really know what they're doing. And they tend to keep it to themselves/students.

Additionally, music is pretty unique in that very few people study music in college without having already studied it seriously for 10+ years prior. Typically, if you've been playing that long, you've applied to specific schools with specific teachers in mind. I don't think anyone that plans on being successful in the field will be able to get much from whatever clown is teaching at the local community college.

Further, teaching can be surprisingly lucrative. Teachers that consistently put out competition winners at the state+ level can charge upwards of 100 dollars an hour. Top tier teachers in the LA area charge 300+. The most expensive I've ever seen was 700 /hr. (This is true for piano, which is my frame of reference. I'm not sure what music teachers in other instruments make.)

Continuing some of the above points, basically every really good pianist in the US comes from one of two "lineages" of pianists. Either they can trace their teachers back to Schnabel, or back to Josef and Rosina Lhevinne. I would be very surprised to hear of any 2nd generation student of Schnabel's or 1st generation student of the Lhevinne's teaching at a community college, much less online. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's really not possible for the students who would succeed to get the information they need in a cheaper form.

But back to the initial point, I'm not convinced that cutting off entire paths of degrees from receiving support in the form of loans won't represent some sort of massive loss to society. Consider all of the potentially lost art/literature/music? At any rate, I feel like either college should just be subsidized by the state, or let people just be personally responsible for what they choose to study (which is what we already do.) I'm heavily in favor of the former.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#87

Post by talmand »

eatbitseveryday wrote: post #80
talmand wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't have student loans, have always had decent paying steady work (except for that time around 9/11), and have never felt financially secured enough to quit a job to travel the world. I have moved around the country for work quite a bit, so I do feel fairly well-traveled. At least in the continental US.

> well-traveled At least colloquially, this term signifies one has been to other countries (or better, other continents) and visited other cultures, immersed in other languages, other governments, other ways of eating, etc. One who stays within a country would not (in my opinion) be "well-traveled", despite the country being enormous. My 2cents.

I believe that definition has a bit of an elitist attitude about it. I don't know you, so I can't say it is your definition, but I have seen it before. I believe it is a totally unfair definition for most people.

I define well-traveled as someone who has traveled a significant distance based on their circumstances in life. By your definition a large portion of the people living in the EU are well-traveled just living their normal lives. Which is a far easier thing to accomplish than someone in the US. I have driven from Orlando FL to Las Vegas NV, a distance of around 2300 miles or so, twice. How many countries does that cover for that range in the EU? I have visited many locations around both cities and in-between. I have lived in four states in different areas of the country, each with their varying cultures. I can tell you for a fact that the Southeast and Southwest US do have different cultures, even though they both sort of speak the same language. Walking through downtown Los Angeles after growing up in small town Alabama is visiting a different culture.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#88

Post by Ar-Curunir »

up_and_up wrote: post #68
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol in which world do professors get paid 400k? Even at Berkeley CS mis career pay is roughly 150k. Administrators have ballooned. Also our dorms are pretty shit.

Business school professors even at Michigan make 200-600k. I know one of them.

I doubt that those professors get pair directly from the University; probably alumni donations fund a lot of that.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#89

Post by coldpie »

Mc_Big_G wrote: post #56
coldpie wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the sentiment, but "I had to do , therefore everybody has to do " isn't a great argument either, especially when it leads to a stagnant economy due to nearly an entire generation with no funds to spend. I'm not advocating for any particular solution, but don't react so quickly that you cut off your nose to spite your face.

It's a great argument, just not phrased correctly. It's more like "I had to work hard and make difficult decisions to succeed which included choosing a field that is guaranteed to pay and being obligated to pay back the money I borrowed. Therefore, everybody should have to do the same. If not, then I at least want to be treated fairly."

> Therefore, everybody should have to do the same.

Why, though? Depending on how the idea of debt relief shakes out, this might be one of those "sometimes life is unfair" moments that you just have to accept and move on as part of living in a society. The alternative is a massive contraction in buying power, which could certainly directly impact your livelihood. Is the spite worth that?

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#90

Post by clifanatic »

atombath wrote: post #28
NikolaeVarius wrote: post #3

If this happens, do I get benefits on the debt I've already paid off? I would be pretty pissed if I didn't. I worked my ass off to pay my loans.

I understand that feeling... I'm nearing the end of my loans and dropped $3k on one of them yesterday. I would have rather had a vacation if it's just going to vanish! ...but don't get salty because the debt won't vanish. I have no doubt that if an education loan is forgiven, it WILL affect that persons credit rating. Much like when a debt is forgiven/charged-off. Also, charge-offs are typically treated as a form of…

I refuse to not be salty if somebody else has something I don't have.
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