To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right
91–100 of 307 posts
Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right
#92If and when I want to tell you that you're wrong, I no longer want you to agree with me or win you over. I just want to tell you to go fuck yourself. At that point, nothing you believe or stand for or identify as will be remotely right in any imaginable stable universe.
Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Only when you understand their argument... I couldn't agree more. As a lifelong believer in science, raised in the Midwest among creationists, I have come into many conversations with intelligent people who somehow place faith in front of evidence. It's demoralizing to realize the frequency that this phenomenon occurs. I've recently scheduled a trip to the Creation Museum to observe the message at its core (half fo…
Sorry, most people are indeed not idiots, but that doesn't apply to creationists. It's one thing to go to a church (there even might be purely social reasons), and it's another thing to discard overwhelming scientific evidence and believe something based on the principle of not needing any evidence at all. I become especially sad when I think of the confused minds of the poor children of these people. On the topic, I…
One of the arguments for evolution involves some very non-trivial calculation on probability of whether it could result in the world we're in right now (not the maths itself, but the sequence of reasoning). It has been a while since I read Dawkin's books, but I don't think the books cover those kind of arguments. I think there are quite a bit of writing on lesswrong on the topic.
I've met creationists that believed in micro evolution: microbe can evolve to get certain resistance. But not the macro one, that is natural selection can result in human as we are right now. I was absolutely not able to justify the probability that it can happen.
Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right
#94That's only one part. Another is realizing that you may be the one who should change your mind.
Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right
#95This is also known as the "shit sandwich" (when leavened with another helping of praise on the other end), and is instantly recognizable once you see the pattern. The risk is that your initial praise is seen as disingenuous by its recipients, or that it goes too far and reifies their underlying value system when it actually is contradictory to yours. Incidentally, Barack Obama was particularly good at this constructi…
Although I agree it can be perceived as disingenuous, I think it's perfectly valid to clarify areas of common thought before trying to adjust someone else's way of thinking. Furthermore it doesn't just make them feel better, but in my experience it makes me as the speaker feel good to openly acknowledge the respect I have for the person I'm dialoguing with, instead of just thinking of them as pure adversary.
Offtopic: not sure if you're aware, but wrapping text in * will make it italicised on HN.
For example, this text is wrapped.
Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hate this pattern. If something is fucked up, tell me, so I can fix it. Don't waste my time buttering me up first and patting me on the back afterwards, just get to the point. It's one thing I do kind of miss about working shitty, dangerous construction and logging jobs summers in college. There's no time for pussyfooting around when a miscommunication means somebody gets crushed or mangled by heavy equipment. Brus…
I'm with you on most of that (the sandwich), but (the shit) it requires a community of trust, and some healthy functioning people, at least within that specific context. I've had a recent online experience in a community in which all interaction is anonymous -- but the anonymity isn't persistent, rather, identities are created and assigned for each discussion. This almost perfectly destroys any and all sense of commu…
> I've had a recent online experience in a community in which all interaction is anonymous -- but the anonymity isn't persistent, rather, identities are created and assigned for each discussion.
I'd like to experience that, it's pretty much how I read reddit/hn anyway. I would be a good way to eliminate group think.
Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right
#97To tell someone how they're right, you first have to understand and accurately represent their position. That's a step that's usually skipped with ideological opponents.
Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right
#98A few more tips for arguing on the Internet: 1) Be polite. Nobody wants to listen to or learn from a rude person. 2) Avoid signaling your values, knowledge, or status. Write for the person you are addressing, not other members of your in-group. Proofread your writing and delete anything that does not serve this purpose. 3) Don't value winning more than understanding.
> Don't value winning more than understanding.
Over time I've learned that when arguing, some people are convinced they must win, and they value that over correctness or logic. With those types, I simply back off with a neutral stance and save myself the time of arguing with someone not interested in changing their position.
Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right
#99What did I just read?
Some unheard of psychologist distorted and dumbified a perfectly understandable passage from the famous Pascal. And because he, as a psychologist, did that; the statement is now considered truth and valid "for realz". Am I getting this right?
Scientist are really our times high priests.
Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right
#100This is also known as the "shit sandwich" (when leavened with another helping of praise on the other end), and is instantly recognizable once you see the pattern. The risk is that your initial praise is seen as disingenuous by its recipients, or that it goes too far and reifies their underlying value system when it actually is contradictory to yours. Incidentally, Barack Obama was particularly good at this constructi…
I hate this pattern. If something is fucked up, tell me, so I can fix it. Don't waste my time buttering me up first and patting me on the back afterwards, just get to the point. It's one thing I do kind of miss about working shitty, dangerous construction and logging jobs summers in college. There's no time for pussyfooting around when a miscommunication means somebody gets crushed or mangled by heavy equipment. Brus…
Re: logging
I had similar experiences communicating with the guide in whitewater rafting.