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To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

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Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#21

Post by cyphar »

There is a modification of this idea which forms a teaching technique that my parents used with me, and I use with everyone I teach or tutor. Essentially you ask them to make predictions (what will happen here). You then try to figure out their process of coming to that conclusion (why do you say that). It's important that you ask them this question even if they're correct. Then you emphasise the parts of their reasoning which make sense, and focus on the parts that were mistaken. You then ask them to make the prediction again with what they've learned. Bonus points if you give a third, different example to reinforce the concepts. Rinse and repeat.

While some people (especially children who aren't used to this method) might not enjoy it at first because it seems to be harder and takes longer than "just giving the answer", it actually helps people learn how to reason about things (which is something that is lacking in a lot of people these days IMO).

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#22

Post by jobu »

rayiner wrote: post #16

Learning how to do this is an essential skill. Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem. Only when you understand their argument well enough to articulate it in your own words can you effectively presen…

Usually I try to resolve disagreements by asking questions. Either they end up poking holes in their own arguments or I learn where I made a mistake.

Telling someone they're wrong is useless. After that they can only think of reasons why they're correct.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#24

Post by danharaj »

whistlerbrk wrote: post #3
helthanatos wrote: post #2

I've always felt more persuasive when doing that. I've also felt more persuaded when I'm not flat told I'm wrong.

it flatters the ego, which can be belittling at times.

I think it is that by stating how someone is right, you are demonstrating a comprehensive understanding of their views which justifies your disagreement. It grounds your points in theirs, creating a shared position which is easier to understand than two positions that are simply smashed against each other until the more solid one prevails.

I think someone who flatters the ego is cargo culting persuasion. It may work when people are more invested in the power relationship than the discussion, like a discussion between a worker and their boss, but otherwise yes I think it is belittling and someone trying to have a genuine dialogue is going to find it obnoxious and insincere.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#25

Post by johngalt »

rayiner wrote: post #16

Learning how to do this is an essential skill. Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem. Only when you understand their argument well enough to articulate it in your own words can you effectively presen…

Someone could also disagree with me because they are correct and I am in error. They may have knowledge or perspective that I lack.

My first step is to try and find something they know that I don't before crafting persuasive arguments. Maximize for total knowledge not winning arguments.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#26

Post by chris_va »

jobu wrote: post #22
rayiner wrote: post #16

Learning how to do this is an essential skill. Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem. Only when you understand their argument well enough to articulate it in your own words can you effectively presen…

Usually I try to resolve disagreements by asking questions. Either they end up poking holes in their own arguments or I learn where I made a mistake. Telling someone they're wrong is useless. After that they can only think of reasons why they're correct.

I am not sure where I read the psych study (citation anyone?), but I remember reading that a really effective method for getting someone to change their mind was actually to get the other person to frame their argument as a question.

E.g., "What questions would you ask me to convince me that you are correct?" It opens up the argument so they are less defensive, since they started with a question instead of an argument.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#27

Post by conistonwater »

rayiner wrote: post #16

Learning how to do this is an essential skill. Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem. Only when you understand their argument well enough to articulate it in your own words can you effectively presen…

Is that actually true? The entire literature on cultural cognition, and the myside bias, and all the other failures of rationality seems to point to it being pretty common for people to disagree irrationally. The advice given here is rather one-sided: one must assume the other person disagrees rationally. That's a huge assumption that is sometimes, maybe often, not justified, yet it's not mentioned. Furthermore, the second part of your comment about articulating their own argument is not related to the first, it's independent of the rationality and quality of their argument.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#28

Post by pavanky »

teen wrote: post #19
rayiner wrote: post #16

Learning how to do this is an essential skill. Most people are not idiots. If they disagree with you, it's probably not because they are being irrational, but because they're starting from a different premise, making different assumptions, or assigning different values to different aspects of the problem. Only when you understand their argument well enough to articulate it in your own words can you effectively presen…

i would argue that most people are in fact idiots

I would argue that most people simple love to argue.

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#29

Post by [deleted] »

nate wrote: post #17

A very similar effect is the "backfire effect" http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Backfire_effect I've been spending a lot of time focusing on this with customer support. When a customer is hot about a problem it doesn't help at all to show facts about anything. It really helps though to begin with a place of empathy of how you understand how they feel if you were in a similar situation. For example, had a great experience…

[deleted]

Re: To tell someone they're wrong, first tell them how they're right

#30

Post by munchbunny »

orsenthil wrote: post #13

I had this failure to make a family member see a particular point of view. The person had taken a stance, that would be harmful to the family, but yet rational arguments did not work out. The person had something to gain, I don't know what, by causing this harm, the person went ahead with that. Have you ever encountered this? If yes, does rational argument and persuation work with people who don't care?

If they're trying to get something and are willing to screw others over for it, then you have to give them an easier way to get what they want. Maybe they actually want something else? Or maybe they can get the thing some less damaging way?

If that all fails then you have to find other strings to pull. Figure out what currencies they care about (think social pressure) and see how you might be able to use them to help you make your case.

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