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IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

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Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#21

Post by gojomo »

thought_alarm wrote: post #16

It's funny how so many people are suddenly mischaracterizing the Apple II or the nature of early personal computers. The very first personal computers, like the Apple II, were sold as development kits to developers/hobbyists because these were the only people who would even think to buy a personal computer in 1976 and 1977. These development kits contain all of the information one would need to create software and ha…

Also: you can't be a successful technology company, across many decades/scales/markets, running the exact same strategy. The terrain changes too fast.

Indeed, it it the overwhelming triumph of openness in many spheres -- the cheap standard components, open-source operating systems, open protocols -- which means other 'sealed appliance' strategies need to be tried, to explore those areas not ideally served by total openness.

The sealed iPhone/iPod isn't a rival to openness, but a necessary complement and outgrowth. Just look at the Settings > General > About > Legal page. You'll see 20+ pages of mostly open-source license/copyright declarations.

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#22

Post by whyenot »

thought_alarm wrote: post #16

It's funny how so many people are suddenly mischaracterizing the Apple II or the nature of early personal computers. The very first personal computers, like the Apple II, were sold as development kits to developers/hobbyists because these were the only people who would even think to buy a personal computer in 1976 and 1977. These development kits contain all of the information one would need to create software and ha…

The very first personal computers, like the Apple II, were sold as development kits to developers/hobbyists because these were the only people who would even think to buy a personal computer in 1976 and 1977. These development kits contain all of the information one would need to create software and hardware for these machines. Is that so unusual?

Although I was very young, and it was a log time ago, I'm not sure I agree with you. My dad purchased an S-100 bus system from George Morrow's Thinker Toys in 1977. It came with CP/M, there were games, including Star Trek and Adventure, there was even a word processor of some kind (not WordStar, something else). It certainly wasn't used as a "development kit" -- outside of maybe knowing a little BASIC, my dad didn't know how to program and used the computer for writing letters, and for playing games (which drove my mother nuts :))

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#23

Post by [deleted] »

tumult wrote: post #19
gte910h wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple expressly forbids "interpreted code" on the iPhoneOS platform. I will say, on Monday that Adobe is releasing flash CS5 which will build native Android/iPhone/iPad/Desktop/Web apps all from the same source (which will be compiled down, not interpreted). I for one would love for this to be the new hypercard :OD http://cs5launch.adobe.com/

No, they don't. Stop repeating this lie. They reject App Store applications which allow users to load in external code which is executed.

[deleted]

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#24

Post by glhaynes »

thought_alarm wrote: post #16

It's funny how so many people are suddenly mischaracterizing the Apple II or the nature of early personal computers. The very first personal computers, like the Apple II, were sold as development kits to developers/hobbyists because these were the only people who would even think to buy a personal computer in 1976 and 1977. These development kits contain all of the information one would need to create software and ha…

I almost entirely agree with your post, though I'll note that the Apple II was unique specifically because it came pre-assembled in a plastic case and was marketed to "regular people". Still, obviously most users were hobbyists, just less "hardcore" than those who assembled their own Altairs.

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#25

Post by blasdel »

gte910h wrote: post #9
stcredzero wrote: post #2

Some sort of hacking sandbox is needed for the iPad. Something like Hypercard would be dandy. Then again, aren't web apps already available? Safari is a very good Javascript platform. Maybe an iPad version of iWeb with a "local server" and some sort of app publishing/sharing via Mobile Me? Actually the beauty of this approach, is that a 3rd party could come out with this quickly, using App Engine or Amazon as a back…

Apple expressly forbids "interpreted code" on the iPhoneOS platform. I will say, on Monday that Adobe is releasing flash CS5 which will build native Android/iPhone/iPad/Desktop/Web apps all from the same source (which will be compiled down, not interpreted). I for one would love for this to be the new hypercard :OD http://cs5launch.adobe.com/

No, they expressly forbid you from implementing your own interpreter or running unsigned machine code.

They're just fine with you using their extremely performant javascript implementation.

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#26

Post by david927 »

Woz has always about being open and modular and extensible. Jobs has always been about the opposite -- and for good reason; the early Macs were typically more stable and functioned better simply because of that lock-in.

But history has played this over and over again, and Woz always wins. Vendors work out standards; the user experience consolidates.

If you give people the freedom and trust them, they'll work it out. Or you can trust a benevolent dictator to work it out for you. Most Apple afficianados will say the most people don't want that freedom; I'm here to tell you that they do.

We don't have to debate. Let's just tune in and watch the sales of the iPad starting next month, after the faithful have all bought theirs. Woz will win. Woz always wins.

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#27

Post by baguasquirrel »

I get this same vibe from a lot of older folks (or people who want to sound like them, all grizzled and what). True, from a hardware standpoint, Apple devices are closed. What matters today however, is that they are open devices from the perspective of a platform and web software developer.

Has everyone forgot how cellphones were black boxes before the iPhone? And lets not forget that we make stuff for normal people here. Not just hackers like us. As it turns out, most folks don't want a hardware-hackable machine. They don't care enough for USB ports. The tablets being championed by MSFT in the previous decade were not much more moddable than the iPad, but I don't see anyone yelling at MSFT about that.

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#28

Post by houseabsolute »

david927 wrote: post #26

Woz has always about being open and modular and extensible. Jobs has always been about the opposite -- and for good reason; the early Macs were typically more stable and functioned better simply because of that lock-in. But history has played this over and over again, and Woz always wins. Vendors work out standards; the user experience consolidates. If you give people the freedom and trust them, they'll work it out.…

> Let's just tune in and watch the sales of the iPad starting next month

We already watched the sales of the iPhone, and we saw how that went. Same type of device, same type of complaints by openness advocate, and what was the result? Are you guys going to just keep on saying this stuff until some closed Apple product fails, then say that's proof that people want openness, ignoring the litany of preceding closed devices that succeeded? I'm here to tell you that this is not a very good argument.

Re: IPad is Steve Jobs’ final victory over Steve Wozniak

#30

Post by gte910h »

tumult wrote: post #19
gte910h wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple expressly forbids "interpreted code" on the iPhoneOS platform. I will say, on Monday that Adobe is releasing flash CS5 which will build native Android/iPhone/iPad/Desktop/Web apps all from the same source (which will be compiled down, not interpreted). I for one would love for this to be the new hypercard :OD http://cs5launch.adobe.com/

No, they don't. Stop repeating this lie. They reject App Store applications which allow users to load in external code which is executed.

You're wrong. Read section 3.3.2 of http://www.eff.org/files/20100302_iphone_dev_agr.pdf

Search the document for "interpreted code"

They expressly forbid it except for "included interpreters" aka javascript.

So hypercard is out of the running.

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