JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop • Hacker News Board

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#61

Post by vidarh » Mon, Sep 12, 2016, 6:13 PM UTC

contextfree wrote: post #15

n00b101 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WebAssembly will hopefully end JavaScript's stranglehold on the web. The justification for using JavaScript for server/desktop/mobile applications seems to essentially be that a certain large group of programmers only know JavaScript.

I'm not sure. All the browser APIs will still use the JS object model. If we look at the situation on the JVM or CLR, it seems like languages specifically designed for those object models (even if adapted from other languages) have been more successful than attempts to directly port existing languages. e.g., Scala, Clojure, F# or Powershell vs. Jython, JRuby, C++/CLI or IronPython. My bet would be that languages spec…

I'm sure there'll be a mix. But consider things like Opal (Ruby => javascript), and it seems like there's at least some people who very much want to be able to work in a single language, but for that language to not be javascript...

I'm sure once webassembly is ready, that'll at least get more popular.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#62

Post by simula67 » Mon, Sep 12, 2016, 6:13 PM UTC

> It turns out it’s useful to have a lingua franca for the web.

No, I don't think so. Most people do not use JavaScript since it is useful. They use it since it is the only option available on the browser. There is a BIG difference.

> Creating desktop apps in JavaScript lets developers choose from a vast range of freely available code libraries and frameworks, which takes much of the grunt work out of coding

Lots of languages have a wide array of freely available code tooling and frameworks.

Slightly tangentially though, I wonder if we really really put our mind to it, will we be able to just kill JavaScript ?

I mean, I am sure that there are people out there making a living on JavaScript, but please, take one for the team. Learn something else. I hear it is a hot market for developers.

JavaScript is obviously a flawed language[1] that inspires absolutely bad programming that the rest of us has to deal with. The ecosystem is terrible[2] and the community is full of self-righteous assholes[3] who has the collective attention span of a 2 year old [4].

Let's just call this experiment a failure, cut our losses and just.move.on.

[1] https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat

[2] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/23/npm_left_pad_chaos/

[3] http://atom-morgan.github.io/in-defense-of-douglas-crockford

[4] https://medium.com/@ericclemmons/javascript-fatigue-48d4011b...

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#63

Post by adamnemecek » Mon, Sep 12, 2016, 6:14 PM UTC

lostInTheWoods3 wrote: post #50

adamnemecek wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also Qt but they have been moving in the web direction too.

And don't forget JavaFX

Do people use that?

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#64

Post by api » Mon, Sep 12, 2016, 6:14 PM UTC

niftich wrote: post #40

The salient points of the article: - People are stuffing websites into Electron and packaging it as a native application - HTML/CSS/JS is considered 'hackable' because it's widely understood by today's semi-power-user audience Although the article doesn't say it, this seems to imply that: - Full-native development unique on each platform is considered too much effort, when you can get a cross-platform app with Electr…

> "Full-native development unique on each platform is considered too much effort, when you can get a cross-platform app with Electron"

Yes, it's this. Full native development is awful since every platform is completely different, and other cross-platform solutions like Qt are a bit behind the web in terms of modern look and feel and developer base.

But Electron is also awful, since a hello world app uses 100mb of RAM.

Desktop GUI app development is horrible... meaning it's slightly worse than mobile GUI app development. GUI development in general is a horrid ghetto where your choice is between bad and completely proprietary.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#65

Post by reitanqild » Mon, Sep 12, 2016, 6:15 PM UTC

gr3yh47 wrote: post #29

raquo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one likes that, but 1) HTML/CSS/JS is sill the only truly cross-platform (mac/windows/linux/web/ios/android/etc.) UI platform/ecosystem in 2016, and it will probably stay that way in the foreseeable future because OS makers love their walled gardens. 2) An app's memory efficiency is not a top 10 priority of an average solo-or-small-team developer's concerns, because that's not what most users pay for. Electron/NW.…

Python would like a word with you about point 1)

Java as well for basically anything but iOS.

C# might even cover that now.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#66

Post by scrollaway » Mon, Sep 12, 2016, 6:15 PM UTC

simula67 wrote: post #62

> It turns out it’s useful to have a lingua franca for the web. No, I don't think so. Most people do not use JavaScript since it is useful. They use it since it is the only option available on the browser. There is a BIG difference. > Creating desktop apps in JavaScript lets developers choose from a vast range of freely available code libraries and frameworks, which takes much of the grunt work out of coding Lots of…

> Most people do not use JavaScript since it is useful. They use it since it is the only option available on the browser.

You're not contradicting what you are replying to. People are using Javascript because it's the only option, but it is useful to have a lingua franca.

I just wish that lingua franca wasn't Javascript.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#67

Post by dan_ahmadi » Mon, Sep 12, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

There are companies using this in production -- saving time and resources! Example: https://mixmax.com/blog/turnkey-electron-apps-with-meteor

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#68

Post by mgkimsal » Mon, Sep 12, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #53

eyko wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with the Python ecosystem but I imagine there are bidings for GTK, QT, or other UI toolkits. The same applies to most (popular) languages. The claim that HTML/CSS/JS is the "only" truly cross platform stack is simply not true. The main hurdle that other languages faced was not having a native UI. For example, GTK on OSX or Windows did not feel native. Key bindings were often not native. Similar story…

> The main hurdle that other languages faced was not having a native UI. Electron faces this same hurdle, but with a twist. It just doesn't care; it picks a rendering target (the web) and simply uses it everywhere. Perhaps that's the approach QT and others need to take as well: stop trying to match Apple's UI on Apple, and Windows' UI on Windows.

> stop trying to match Apple's UI on Apple, and Windows' UI on Windows.

Great idea, but make sure it at least looks/feels good.

I remember Swing stuff from the late 90s and... IMO the primary issue wasn't so much that "it doesn't look like Windows" but that ... it was a very poor experience.

Copy/paste/keys - yeah, that's an annoyance, but if the UI is clean, friendly, easy to understand and be productive on, people can look past the differences of the native host OS. Swing (and GTK and others) really don't provide a 'better' UX (imo).

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#69

Post by t1amat » Mon, Sep 12, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

niftich wrote: post #40

The salient points of the article: - People are stuffing websites into Electron and packaging it as a native application - HTML/CSS/JS is considered 'hackable' because it's widely understood by today's semi-power-user audience Although the article doesn't say it, this seems to imply that: - Full-native development unique on each platform is considered too much effort, when you can get a cross-platform app with Electr…

All of the above. If your application can be designed as a web application, you can use responsive designs and progressive enhancement techniques to create an experience that works across any platform with a web browser - with one code base. This is a pretty amazing thing, and for various business-related reasons this may seem like the right move.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#70

Post by sebringj » Mon, Sep 12, 2016, 6:17 PM UTC

More systems like React Native are how JavaScript should be done on the desktop rather than cordova-like things running in a node host. It has approachability but also performance and ubiquity of skill set, very little friction and is better suited for integrating native controls IMO.