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JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

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Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#41
post #29
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one likes that, but 1) HTML/CSS/JS is sill the only truly cross-platform (mac/windows/linux/web/ios/android/etc.) UI platform/ecosystem in 2016, and it will probably stay that way in the foreseeable future because OS makers love their walled gardens. 2) An app's memory efficiency is not a top 10 priority of an average solo-or-small-team developer's concerns, because that's not what most users pay for. Electron/NW.…

Python would like a word with you about point 1)

Honest question – how do you build cross-platform application UI in python?

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#42
post #29
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one likes that, but 1) HTML/CSS/JS is sill the only truly cross-platform (mac/windows/linux/web/ios/android/etc.) UI platform/ecosystem in 2016, and it will probably stay that way in the foreseeable future because OS makers love their walled gardens. 2) An app's memory efficiency is not a top 10 priority of an average solo-or-small-team developer's concerns, because that's not what most users pay for. Electron/NW.…

Python would like a word with you about point 1)

I use a network simulation software inside of lubuntu inside of a VirtualBox inside my Mac. VirtualBox is a stream of headaches, and you suffer a big performance hit. What I wouldn't give for the software to serve an http/css/js interface so that I could run it with docker or natively instead.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#43
post #16
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poorly written websites can bring a desktop PC to its knees, but so can a poorly written native application. That isn't an argument against leveraging web technology so much as an argument in favour of well written applications. And at least with a chromeless-browser-pretending-to-be-application you have the protection of the browser process sandbox so an app that goes awry isn't going to take your computer down that…

> That isn't an argument against leveraging web technology so much as an argument in favour of well written applications The difference is there is very little room for optimisation in most javascript runtimes. They don't support multi-threading and the memory is impossible to manage. "Lower" level languages always allow better performance tweaking when necessary. Javascript allows next to none. You can't tell javasc…

Slightly nitpicky, but while lack of support for multithreading might make a particular app slow or unresponsive, I'd have thought it makes it less likely for that app to be able to bring the entire system to its knees.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#44
post #33
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That isn't an argument against leveraging web technology so much as an argument in favour of well written applications The difference is there is very little room for optimisation in most javascript runtimes. They don't support multi-threading and the memory is impossible to manage. "Lower" level languages always allow better performance tweaking when necessary. Javascript allows next to none. You can't tell javasc…

I think the spirit of the argument is that if you have requirements for heavy computation such that you need multithreading + low level memory management, then you probably shouldn't use this. Use the right tool for the job. This is just one of them. Plus there are alternatives to threads. Look at the state of Atom or VSCode. Much progress has been made in terms of perf and these are not trivial applications.

> Use the right tool for the job

That's a funny argument in a thread about js. Js has started as a small language to do scripting on the pages, now they are sticking it everywhere.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#45

Linux is more successful on the desktop than it's ever been, and Gnome is largely powered by JavaScript. The Gnome extensions repository is a huge JavaScript success. Never before has WM customization been so accessible. The Universal Windows Platform also has a JavaScript API that is a breeze compared to the old Win32 development process. Electron is good but just the tip of the iceberg. I think it says more that ma…

More likely they see a lot of programmers who only know JavaScript and they want to offer them something.

was just about to say: it's not damn javascript, it's the damn developers.

it's really becoming like java. pushed every, but the wrong choice on many occasions.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#46
post #13

JavaScript didn't "conquer" anything. It was just one of the first languages around when the web was still in its infancy, and simply never went away.

You're in denial. Javascript is everywhere nowadays. It has become the English of languages. It's not my favorite language but it has improved extensively.

No one wants to maintain a web app, mobile app, and desktop app separately.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#48
post #41
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Python would like a word with you about point 1)

Honest question – how do you build cross-platform application UI in python?

I'm not familiar with the Python ecosystem but I imagine there are bidings for GTK, QT, or other UI toolkits. The same applies to most (popular) languages. The claim that HTML/CSS/JS is the "only" truly cross platform stack is simply not true.

The main hurdle that other languages faced was not having a native UI. For example, GTK on OSX or Windows did not feel native. Key bindings were often not native. Similar story with Java (was it Swing?).

The HTML/JS/CSS combo has exactly the same issue (it's not comparable to a native GUI - Cocoa or whatever it is.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#49
post #10
post #2

I'm not an expert, but the memory required to render the seemingly simplest of interfaces in html/js/css in a browser today seems excessive. Some web sites bring a reasonably powered desktop to its knees. I'm not sure I want this problem on my desktop too. Though I guess this is just one step closer to having METAL. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

I feel your pain. My first computer had 4K of RAM; my second had 48K; my third, 640K. I learned to work small. It pains me to see the equivalent of Hello World taking up untold MB. But when I think about software as a business rather than an art, I have to concede that it's a very rare circumstance where RAM efficiency matters as much as I'd like. Note the way the cost of memory has declined: http://www.jcmit.com/mem…

Memory isn't the issue to me. Latency is.

Most of the applications I work with today do a lot, that's true, but their UI latency is often worse than it was on my 7.16Mz M68000 Amiga 500, and other things as well are just slow.

I've mentioned here several times in the past that on my laptop I can "boot" Linux-hosted AROS (so the problem is not the Linux kernel, nor X) with a custom startup script to boot it straight into a full featured, scriptable text editor in less time than it takes to start Emacs.

I'm sure it's possible to tune my Emacs setup (for example, I found out by a fluke, that the default Emacs setup on debian will wait for a DNS request to complete or time out before it starts - break your DNS setup and Emacs will hang for ages) or pick another editor (many of the other ones I've tried are either just as slow or feature-limited compared to the Amiga editor in question - FrexxEd, co-written by the same guy that started curl), but the point is that we've come to accept the kind of slow startup and UI latency that was unacceptable back then.

E.g. people spent weeks tuning and trimming AmigaOS commands to make them the smallest possible so we could make as many of them as possible RAM resident to avoid the tiny fractions of a second it'd take the load-time linker to load them.

I'm happy we don't need to think that much about the RAM any more. But we do need to think about the latency.

There's the attitude that we should just throw servers at this instead of developer time. That's fine when you can compensate by e.g. throwing more RAM in and/or a program is run relatively rarely or where paying for a beefier server in some data centre can achieve the same performance. But it's not true when latency grows into user noticeable levels because you can't get high enough single-core performance, and that program is run a lot.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#50
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one likes that, but 1) HTML/CSS/JS is sill the only truly cross-platform (mac/windows/linux/web/ios/android/etc.) UI platform/ecosystem in 2016, and it will probably stay that way in the foreseeable future because OS makers love their walled gardens. 2) An app's memory efficiency is not a top 10 priority of an average solo-or-small-team developer's concerns, because that's not what most users pay for. Electron/NW.…

There's also Qt but they have been moving in the web direction too.

And don't forget JavaFX
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