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JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

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Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#31
post #16
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poorly written websites can bring a desktop PC to its knees, but so can a poorly written native application. That isn't an argument against leveraging web technology so much as an argument in favour of well written applications. And at least with a chromeless-browser-pretending-to-be-application you have the protection of the browser process sandbox so an app that goes awry isn't going to take your computer down that…

> That isn't an argument against leveraging web technology so much as an argument in favour of well written applications The difference is there is very little room for optimisation in most javascript runtimes. They don't support multi-threading and the memory is impossible to manage. "Lower" level languages always allow better performance tweaking when necessary. Javascript allows next to none. You can't tell javasc…

> the memory is impossible to manage.

Nonsense. There are plenty of strategies for managing memory efficiently in JavaScript. Yes you can't do a C++ level of allocation, decallocation, etc but you most certainly can manage the amount of memory your code uses.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#32
post #29
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one likes that, but 1) HTML/CSS/JS is sill the only truly cross-platform (mac/windows/linux/web/ios/android/etc.) UI platform/ecosystem in 2016, and it will probably stay that way in the foreseeable future because OS makers love their walled gardens. 2) An app's memory efficiency is not a top 10 priority of an average solo-or-small-team developer's concerns, because that's not what most users pay for. Electron/NW.…

Python would like a word with you about point 1)

Python on iOS?

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#33
post #16
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poorly written websites can bring a desktop PC to its knees, but so can a poorly written native application. That isn't an argument against leveraging web technology so much as an argument in favour of well written applications. And at least with a chromeless-browser-pretending-to-be-application you have the protection of the browser process sandbox so an app that goes awry isn't going to take your computer down that…

> That isn't an argument against leveraging web technology so much as an argument in favour of well written applications The difference is there is very little room for optimisation in most javascript runtimes. They don't support multi-threading and the memory is impossible to manage. "Lower" level languages always allow better performance tweaking when necessary. Javascript allows next to none. You can't tell javasc…

I think the spirit of the argument is that if you have requirements for heavy computation such that you need multithreading + low level memory management, then you probably shouldn't use this. Use the right tool for the job. This is just one of them.

Plus there are alternatives to threads. Look at the state of Atom or VSCode. Much progress has been made in terms of perf and these are not trivial applications.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#34
post #5
post #2

I'm not an expert, but the memory required to render the seemingly simplest of interfaces in html/js/css in a browser today seems excessive. Some web sites bring a reasonably powered desktop to its knees. I'm not sure I want this problem on my desktop too. Though I guess this is just one step closer to having METAL. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

No one likes that, but 1) HTML/CSS/JS is sill the only truly cross-platform (mac/windows/linux/web/ios/android/etc.) UI platform/ecosystem in 2016, and it will probably stay that way in the foreseeable future because OS makers love their walled gardens. 2) An app's memory efficiency is not a top 10 priority of an average solo-or-small-team developer's concerns, because that's not what most users pay for. Electron/NW.…

There's also Qt but they have been moving in the web direction too.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#35

Linux is more successful on the desktop than it's ever been, and Gnome is largely powered by JavaScript. The Gnome extensions repository is a huge JavaScript success. Never before has WM customization been so accessible. The Universal Windows Platform also has a JavaScript API that is a breeze compared to the old Win32 development process. Electron is good but just the tip of the iceberg. I think it says more that ma…

More likely they see a lot of programmers who only know JavaScript and they want to offer them something.

Is that a bad thing?

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#36
post #5
post #2

I'm not an expert, but the memory required to render the seemingly simplest of interfaces in html/js/css in a browser today seems excessive. Some web sites bring a reasonably powered desktop to its knees. I'm not sure I want this problem on my desktop too. Though I guess this is just one step closer to having METAL. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

No one likes that, but 1) HTML/CSS/JS is sill the only truly cross-platform (mac/windows/linux/web/ios/android/etc.) UI platform/ecosystem in 2016, and it will probably stay that way in the foreseeable future because OS makers love their walled gardens. 2) An app's memory efficiency is not a top 10 priority of an average solo-or-small-team developer's concerns, because that's not what most users pay for. Electron/NW.…

It would be interesting to see the evolution of memory usage for the popular platform du jour from the earliest decades until today. My uneducated guess says it will be an exponential.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#37
post #29
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one likes that, but 1) HTML/CSS/JS is sill the only truly cross-platform (mac/windows/linux/web/ios/android/etc.) UI platform/ecosystem in 2016, and it will probably stay that way in the foreseeable future because OS makers love their walled gardens. 2) An app's memory efficiency is not a top 10 priority of an average solo-or-small-team developer's concerns, because that's not what most users pay for. Electron/NW.…

Python would like a word with you about point 1)

Well I have yet to see Python make a decent cross platform application on all of those platforms especially iOS and Android.

I love Python but people over state its benefits and effectiveness.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#38
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one likes that, but 1) HTML/CSS/JS is sill the only truly cross-platform (mac/windows/linux/web/ios/android/etc.) UI platform/ecosystem in 2016, and it will probably stay that way in the foreseeable future because OS makers love their walled gardens. 2) An app's memory efficiency is not a top 10 priority of an average solo-or-small-team developer's concerns, because that's not what most users pay for. Electron/NW.…

On point (1) you've kind of loaded the comparison by including web in that list...

It's a common business scenario: start out as a web app, then as business picks up let's start providing native apps.

Or the other way: start out with a native app on the platform we most care about + a web app for "access from anywhere".

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#39
I know many languages but JS is what a lot of new companies need, therefore I have devoted myself to it. On my own time, I like to code in C, because it is a pleasure to use something so fast and close to the metal, and requires such a different style of programming (disciplined paranoia) and allows me maximum control over application resources.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#40
The salient points of the article:

- People are stuffing websites into Electron and packaging it as a native application

- HTML/CSS/JS is considered 'hackable' because it's widely understood by today's semi-power-user audience

Although the article doesn't say it, this seems to imply that:

- Full-native development unique on each platform is considered too much effort, when you can get a cross-platform app with Electron

- Other platforms are not very 'hackable'; why is this?

Is this purely because JS has a higher mindshare and marketshare than [preferred platform language] on [preferred platform toolkit] on [preferred platform], or do HTML/CSS/JS applications actually tend to hit a sweet spot in terms of separation of presentation, view logic, business logic? Or is it about the view-understand-edit-deploy lifecycle being easier with HTML/JS apps?

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