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JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

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Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#21

Linux is more successful on the desktop than it's ever been, and Gnome is largely powered by JavaScript. The Gnome extensions repository is a huge JavaScript success. Never before has WM customization been so accessible. The Universal Windows Platform also has a JavaScript API that is a breeze compared to the old Win32 development process. Electron is good but just the tip of the iceberg. I think it says more that ma…

> Linux is more successful on the desktop than it's ever been

That's not saying much since Linux is pretty much nonexistent on the desktop.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#22
post #2

I'm not an expert, but the memory required to render the seemingly simplest of interfaces in html/js/css in a browser today seems excessive. Some web sites bring a reasonably powered desktop to its knees. I'm not sure I want this problem on my desktop too. Though I guess this is just one step closer to having METAL. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

Too much wishful thinking during the second half of the talk, though. Also, while fancy runtime systems can improve the performance of dynamic[0] languages, it doesn't come for free: the price to be paid is the loss of elegance. For instance, a JIT compiler could inline a virtual method that seems not to be overridden anywhere, but if later on it turns out that the virtual method was overridden somewhere, the “optimi…

> How can anyone in their right mind trust a language that requires such dirty implementation tricks to achieve decent performance?

Isn't this a rather broad brush with which to paint all JIT language implementations, including Java, C#, and, say, PyPy?

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#23
post #13

JavaScript didn't "conquer" anything. It was just one of the first languages around when the web was still in its infancy, and simply never went away.

Lets be honest here, Javascript (alternately known as ECMAscript [1]) has done the following: a) progressively adopted new language features like prototypes, closures, generics and the like.

Javascript just being there early wasn't enough. I has improved remarkably over the past 20 years, and the ECMA standards body has been critical to that improvement.

That said, it's still a quirky language and that alone makes a lot of people feel they can't rely on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECMAScript

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#25
post #5
post #2

I'm not an expert, but the memory required to render the seemingly simplest of interfaces in html/js/css in a browser today seems excessive. Some web sites bring a reasonably powered desktop to its knees. I'm not sure I want this problem on my desktop too. Though I guess this is just one step closer to having METAL. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

No one likes that, but 1) HTML/CSS/JS is sill the only truly cross-platform (mac/windows/linux/web/ios/android/etc.) UI platform/ecosystem in 2016, and it will probably stay that way in the foreseeable future because OS makers love their walled gardens. 2) An app's memory efficiency is not a top 10 priority of an average solo-or-small-team developer's concerns, because that's not what most users pay for. Electron/NW.…

On point (1) you've kind of loaded the comparison by including web in that list...

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#27
post #2

I'm not an expert, but the memory required to render the seemingly simplest of interfaces in html/js/css in a browser today seems excessive. Some web sites bring a reasonably powered desktop to its knees. I'm not sure I want this problem on my desktop too. Though I guess this is just one step closer to having METAL. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

See the spotify client, popcorn time, visual studio code. these are javascript. They run great.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#28

Linux is more successful on the desktop than it's ever been, and Gnome is largely powered by JavaScript. The Gnome extensions repository is a huge JavaScript success. Never before has WM customization been so accessible. The Universal Windows Platform also has a JavaScript API that is a breeze compared to the old Win32 development process. Electron is good but just the tip of the iceberg. I think it says more that ma…

No, gnome is "largely" powered by C, like the vast majority of other performant software out there.

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#29
post #5
post #2

I'm not an expert, but the memory required to render the seemingly simplest of interfaces in html/js/css in a browser today seems excessive. Some web sites bring a reasonably powered desktop to its knees. I'm not sure I want this problem on my desktop too. Though I guess this is just one step closer to having METAL. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

No one likes that, but 1) HTML/CSS/JS is sill the only truly cross-platform (mac/windows/linux/web/ios/android/etc.) UI platform/ecosystem in 2016, and it will probably stay that way in the foreseeable future because OS makers love their walled gardens. 2) An app's memory efficiency is not a top 10 priority of an average solo-or-small-team developer's concerns, because that's not what most users pay for. Electron/NW.…

Python would like a word with you about point 1)

Re: JavaScript Conquered the Web, Now It’s Taking Over the Desktop

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too much wishful thinking during the second half of the talk, though. Also, while fancy runtime systems can improve the performance of dynamic[0] languages, it doesn't come for free: the price to be paid is the loss of elegance. For instance, a JIT compiler could inline a virtual method that seems not to be overridden anywhere, but if later on it turns out that the virtual method was overridden somewhere, the “optimi…

> How can anyone in their right mind trust a language that requires such dirty implementation tricks to achieve decent performance? Isn't this a rather broad brush with which to paint all JIT language implementations, including Java, C#, and, say, PyPy?

Could you name a JIT compiler that doesn't do this kind of thing, yet offers performance comparable to AOT-compiled languages?

(FWIW, I'm not saying it's impossible. It's perfectly possible, but you'd need a source language that offers much better static guarantees than the typical language that a JIT compiler is written for.)

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Sorry, can't reply to you directly, because “I'm submitting too fast”. So my reply goes here:

> for the simple reason that type systems cannot capture all relevant runtime context.

Type checking isn't the only kind of static analysis out there. And there's no need to use statistics to optimize anything at runtime when your ahead-of-time compilation step already emits optimal target machine code.

> Java is a good example here, since it's strongly statically typed.

Java is as dynamically typed as it gets: `instanceof`, downcasts and reflection, all conspire to reduce the usefulness of static type information to zero.

> By your reckoning, all greedy optimizations that CPUs do like branch prediction and prefetching are also similarly 'inelegant', because they can be wrong and require rolling back.

Yes, indeed. It's more elegant to know beforehand what exactly you have to do, and then do just that and nothing else.

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