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Facebook is imposing American censorship on the rest of the world

telegraph.co.uk

181–190 of 348 posts

Re: Facebook is imposing American censorship on the rest of the world

#181
post #85

Lots and lots of people seem to forget: Facebook is an American COMPANY. It is not a utility, it is not a non-profit organization. People choose to use it, and hence they have to put up with their rules. If they don't like it, they should stop using it and start using the open alternatives.

Much like the dichotomy between violence and obscenity which is the subject of the article, the public and private distinction on the ethics of censorship is extremely American. Consider, a "privately" owned company that opens its doors to the public is absolutely not allowed to refuse to serve someone on the basis of their skin color. The fact is that when you open your service to the general public then you are no…

>you open yourself up to be regulated by the governments of those people you invite into your service.

By this logic facebook should also ban gay pride symbols because Russians use facebook...

Re: Facebook is imposing American censorship on the rest of the world

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's completely and utterly beside the point. We absolutely do expose them (willingly) to violent imagery. Whether it's done by dropping them off at a movie theater or at a friend's house is irrelevant.

Not besides the point because we as a society don't allow children to be admitted to violent movies by themselves. That's our societal values and pretty much everyone agrees with age restrictions in theaters, nobody is protesting in the streets to remove them. Where the hell do you live?

> Not besides the point because we as a society don't allow children to be admitted to violent movies by themselves.

You are confusing "violent movies" with "R-rated movies". The we don't admit children to R-rated movies, but we do admit them to PG-13 movies (which have as much violence, but less sex) illustrates, rather than rebuts, the greater tolerance for violence than sex.

Re: Facebook is imposing American censorship on the rest of the world

#183
post #69

1. This won't last as people will want their own cultural and legal rules to apply on Facebook. 2. Facebook is not just a private company anymore. It's cool to have success, but that comes with bigger public scrutiny, and possibly a lot more obligations than a normal startup who would have only a few users. 3. Don't think this is minor. Facebook will need to evolve, even in the US. This is a matter of Free Speech and…

Facebook is not just a private company anymore. In what sense? Legally they are, they act like one so I am not sure in practice what makes that distinct. Perhaps you mean that user expectations makes them not "just a private company." In which case I see no reason why that doesn't also extend to pretty much any other much smaller platform in which users complain about moderation or opaque governance (reddit, twitter,…

> In what sense? Legally they are, they act like one so I am not sure in practice what makes that distinct.

Facebook, Inc. is a publicly traded company. An example of a private company would be Dell Technologies.

Re: Facebook is imposing American censorship on the rest of the world

#184

I don't get why this is such an issue. I understand the sheer numbers of people that use fb and get their 'news' from it, but it amazes me that people are shocked that fb censors the content. Facebook never claimed to be a news organization nor part of the 5th estate (which, pretty much doesn't exist). So that being the case, I would never expect fb to be a partner for democracy. Just because some recent revolutions…

It's strange because the people upset over this are the same people who are full steam ahead on censoring anything and anyone they don't like, waving that XKCD comic as battle flag.

Re: Facebook is imposing American censorship on the rest of the world

#185
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe that the old Europe has very interesting things to say Like UK libel laws that are so nice that they created a phenomenon of "libel tourism" where people come into UK to sue others for libel because in other places they'd be laughed out of court? Or like courts forcing search engines remove pages because some person feels uneasy with true public information about them being out there? Or criminal penaltie…

Very solid whataboutism. Yes, Europe is not perfect and has some serious problems with freedom. That being said, the first amendment (jurisprudence) in the USA suffers from two serious flaws not necessarily suffered by freedom of expression legislation in other countries: 1. The first amendment has the egregious exception for obscenity with an absurdly subjective community standards test. 2. The first amendment is on…

> The first amendment has the egregious exception for obscenity with an absurdly subjective community standards test.

True, that is a problem. I'd say it's smaller problem than "hate speech" ban though - it's quite hard to ban something important to the society under obscenity ban - after all, not a lot in our life depends on being able to see tits (or whatever bits one is personally fascinated with). But it's quite easy to disrupt democratic processes under the guise of fighting "hate speech" - see Russia, for example, with its infamous article 282. I'm not saying US censorship is good - on the contrary, it's despicable. But it's a) less dangerous than European one which has clear political goals of suppressing political opinion and b) clearly goes contrary to a supreme law of the land that states freedom of speech shall not be infringed.

> The first amendment is only applicable to the government as an actor.

Well, yes. But only government is an actor that is allowed to use force, so if the government is banned from interfering with your speech, that's a big deal. Of course, private citizens can refuse to talk to you or interact with you because of your speech and that'd suck. But at least they can't force you to stop speaking or jail or harm you for that - or, at least, if they try, the state will be on your side.

> Americans are all too willing to refuse to label censorship by parties that are not the government as censorship

No, labeling is fine - it's just that private censorship is different, as per above. Publishing stuff in other place than Facebook is much easier than moving to another country.

> Book burning is still book burning.

Yes, but if I have bought a book I have the right to burn it. It's my book, I do what I want with it. And anyway, how me burning my own book hurts you? You can buy your own book and not burn it, I don't prevent you from doing it.

> the whole reason for that censorship is this one defect in the first amendment

Nope. You seem to be misunderstanding what US Constitution is made for. It's a unique document, and often misunderstood. It describes what Federal Government can and (very important) can't do. But it doesn't - and can't - describe what private citizens can and can't do, because it's citizens establishing the Government, not the other way around. So it's not a defect, it is by design that Constitution can not limit private citizen's actions.

> The irony being that the exception isn't even in the first amendment,

Again, private censorship has nothing to do with First Amendment. The infamous "obscenity exception" and other "exceptions" of the First Amendment invented by various political actors always have one goal - to enable the government to restrict speech. Nobody uses them to make The New Yorker magazine to publish porn - only to ban some other magazine from doing so. First Amendment can't make The New Yorker publish materials they don't want to, but it can protect Penthouse from being shut down by the government for publishing something they do want to.

Re: Facebook is imposing American censorship on the rest of the world

#186
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the logical definition that I've always known. From MW: (1) : a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority (2) : the whole body of such customs, practices, or rules (3) Offhand, I can't think of one group of people who adhere to customs, practice or rules, that they think are immoral. > It also oper…

> I'm not sure what you mean > by this. That things often continue to be legal (or illegal) well after the consensus on their morality has shifted. And that is to completely put aside those laws that were patently immoral

Well yes. Law's are codified at a certain time. And then the law changes, and morality is codified at the new time. You really can't judge the morality of an action when removed from the instance and context that action happened in...

I guess I should have said codified at a certain time, but I thought that was implied.

Re: Facebook is imposing American censorship on the rest of the world

#187
post #39

If you don't like Facebook's actions then don't use it. Having open speech on Facebook's platform is not an inalienable right. I don't agree with Facebook's privacy policies and thus have deleted my account and use other platforms. This isn't difficult. This article is tantamount to saying "Woe is me, NYT won't publish my op-ed." and expecting anyone to take you seriously.

>If you don't like Facebook's actions then don't use it. In other words, "You're free to speak, as long as no one can hear you." Nice bait. Look at all your replies. >Having open speech on Facebook's platform is not an inalienable right. So long as the government ensures that Facebook is the only platform via patent/copyright/trademark enforcement, I beg to differ. When I can build a Facebook clone of my own and not…

Nice bait. Look at all your replies.

Don't be a dick. We're having a conversation here. Lots of people in this very thread don't use Facebook.

Re: Facebook is imposing American censorship on the rest of the world

#188

Maybe it's time to consider Facebook, Twitter, et al, as common carriers, which, under the new net neutrality law, would disallow them from censoring content. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier#Telecommunicati...

I just read a comment on HN that calls for using government to force private companies to host and serve content against their will.

Is this real life?

Re: Facebook is imposing American censorship on the rest of the world

#189
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has something like 330 million people in it. I assure you, there are a lot of us who see the basic logic around this and think we should stop worrying about the occasional nipple. In this particular instance though, it's worse than your complaint. We're talking about censoring an iconic image captured from an important time in our history. I'd be willing to bet that even among the anti-nipple people, this ima…

>I assure you, there are a lot of us who see the basic logic around this and think we should stop worrying about the occasional nipple. I think the basic problem here is not that there aren't Americans who don't have a problem with seeing a bit of nipple, but that a majority of Americans don't seem to understand that if you censor this kind of thing from people, it makes them a lot more reactive to it when they do in…

> if you censor this kind of thing from people, it makes them a lot more reactive to it when they do in fact encounter it - that is to say, by removing from society any acceptance of sex as a positive thing, American society has become far more malleable and reactive to sex - and thus can be sold more things using sex - than it should be.

This is brilliant, I've never thought about it this way, but it makes huge sense.

Control of the masses in Edward Bernays style.

Re: Facebook is imposing American censorship on the rest of the world

#190
This issue is quite easily fixable if Facebook would have set up their censoring policy in a different way: allow everything by default, detect or let users flag illegal posts or images (e.g. child pornography) Make the post invisible for others from that point on, but do not remove it nor notify the author. Alert the authorities when child porn is uploaded, and let them figure out whether they'd want to pursue it or not. If authorities decide not to pursue, make it visible again. If authorities do decide to pursue the author should've abided the law. That way Facebook moves the entire censorship discussion to law enforcement, which is pretty much the best place for it to be.

Furthermore, because this may yield some shocking images into ones timeline, Facebook should try to use machine learning to invisibly tag posts by their content. For nudity there are already algorithms, and I'm sure other shocking content could be tagged in a similar way as well. Last step: give everybody a settings panel with what they want to see, except for kids, they can't see anything that isn't according to the PG-[age] regulations.

That makes it completely PC :)

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